THE NEXT SUPER SMASH BROS!

[frostedWarlock]

If great gamers suck with him and sucky gamers are great with him, that is more of a problem with either Sonic being a pubstomper who lets sucky people beat sucky people, or if the sucky people are beating the great people, a problem where the sucky players are definitely not sucky and the great gamers may not be great.

I mean, if a top tier pro who wins tournaments flops around uselessly with Sonic, yeah, he may still be great... but if a "sucky" player beats that top tier pro with Sonic, he's definitely not sucky.

That's pretty much it. From what I heard, when try tried to tier Sonic, they couldn't get any consistent data on him due to all the potential definitions you just listed.

Though like I said, I heard this secondhand, and the words I read, even if accurate, could be outdated.

[Edrobot]

I think I allready said this but... ANYONE from Xenoblade Chronicles. Especilly Shulk or Danban.

[yoursisnodisgrace]

Oh, wow. I can't believe it. It's the only console only series since the N-64 and they're porting it to 3DS. The market seems to be mobile.
Well, sounds exciting. Maybe there will be copious amounts of Generation V and more Earthbound. I'd like to see that.

[frostedWarlock]

Hm... also, Shantae. She's third-party, but exclusive to Nintendo consoles and definitely has a full movepool.

[ArmsAreLoud]

That's pretty much it. From what I heard, when try tried to tier Sonic, they couldn't get any consistent data on him due to all the potential definitions you just listed.

Though like I said, I heard this secondhand, and the words I read, even if accurate, could be outdated.

Well the Smash community is comprised mostly of people who do not have experience in traditional fighting games. They also don't understand that, in the case of tiers, the data always lies.

[Wesley Foxx]

I'd guess the Roy (and by extention for my group of friends, Marth) bans in melee are because their side smashes are cheap as all fuck. They fired instantly and had way more range than they had any right to be. Especially cheap for attacking through walls.

In our house, it wasn't about wavedashing or fox only final destination, it was "God damnit, I am going to find a way to disable the c-stick for you if you are literally not going to do anything but mash it to the right/left all day, would you please play SOMEONE, ANYONE other than Marth or Roy?!?"

[ArmsAreLoud]

Did you try using projectiles

Or attacking from above? I don't remember the exact properties of those moves because it has been a LONG time since I last played Melee. I played Roy and my best friend played Marth.

[Wesley Foxx]

It was basically an arc half as tall again as they are, from about 20 degrees behind and above them to the floor in front of them. And could be spammed almost nonstop. And marth/roy both have the standard ability to shield and the down-b counter. And what characters in Melee even had decent knockback-causing ranged attacks that weren't stupid easy to dodge/parry?

[ArmsAreLoud]

Shrug. There's gotta be a reason why Roy is considered shit tier, if I knew more about the game I'd be able to tell you what you should be doing. The down-b counter has a crazy long recovery so if you predict they will respond with that you could just grab them.

[Milskidasith]

From personal experience with all kinds of fighting games, throws are basically never used by almost any group that isn't competitive in any fighting game. I mean, it may not necessarily be true of all groups, but the majority of casual groups I've played with never threw me and played as if I would never throw them, which helped me out a lot against people who were otherwise much better than me.

Except in MvC3, where instead basically nobody I ever met used throws in any fashion, even when I finally breached into the 4th lord+ranking area where people were much better than me. Throws were incredibly rare there except the occasional character who could near 100% from a throw (mag-fucking-neto).

So, ignoring the digression, this means that for casual play, stuff that's easily throwable tends to get thrown out a lot and not punished, which means that a lot of things get mixed up. Counter moves become incredibly effective against a lot of attempts to initiate because you either need to throw a slow blow during the counter on reaction or hit with something quick that isn't very punishing, blocking happens a bit more if blocking is something people do in the group, and so things just get weird. I mean, I've done really well against smash groups by simply running around with dash attacks/dash throws because that just didn't fit into how they played at all, because casual play is weird and nothing makes sense.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I have a hard time imagining how you can go without seeing throws in Marvel considering how easy it is to perform one completely by accident (herp a derp Taskmaster's Shield Skills option selects) but that's kinda divorced from your main point.

I do see where you're coming from, though. I jumped in on a 64 casual with a bunch of people who were much more experienced with the game than I am and I consistently came out on top just by abusing Pikachu's throws. So basically the moral of the story is GUYS THROWS ARE A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF FIGHTING GAMES THAT YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO USE ESPECIALLY IN ONE LIKE SMASH WHERE YOU CAN'T FUCKING TECH THEM.

[Milskidasith]

There are a few characters with throws that are relevant, but for a lot of characters (the ones I played a decent bit included) throws just... didn't do much. I mean, as Hulk I could either attempt a command throw that had shitty range, or I could just throw out a multitude of safe attack options or things that are "safe" because they're abusive Hulk style frame traps. It was very hard for me to ever accidentally throw as any of the characters I played, mostly because their attack range and entry options severely limited anything but an intentional attempt at a throw.

The only times I ever saw throws in MvC3 were when I started using Hulk throws on people who would block in the corner and wait for me to throw something out... mostly because that's what throws are for. Even then it was kinda lame because herp derp Hulk throws = 300k damage if you burn a hyper and 100k if you don't, which was totally irrelevant because they'd have to get thrown three or four times for that to matter while they'd die getting punched by the Hulk once or twice.

[Wesley Foxx]

Yeah, throws generally don't do shit for damage or for distance unless you're already at percentages that ANYTHING would. Except against NPCs. And Mewtwo's throws. And pretty much everyone's down-throw for humiliation factor.

[Milskidasith]

Throws are actually a pretty good way to get reliable damage on a lot of people in Smash, especially because if they're low enough you can usually follow up pretty safely even if you aren't a chain throwing pro or something.

[ArmsAreLoud]

It helps that shield+throw will counter a lot of things pretty safely.

[Mustavus]

Throws, like pretty much every move in Smash, vary widely in quality from character to character. I think every character at least has one that's good for leading into combos, some are great killing moves, and then there's oddballs like Pikachu's back throw that can make it easy to force an opponent off the stage regardless of damage.

But yeah. In Melee, Marth was pretty amazing at any level of play. I think a lot of the reason Roy was tiered so far below was the sweet spot on his sword. Marth hits crazy hard with the tip of his sword, Roy hits hard with the hilt of his sword. At higher levels of play, trying to get close enough for Roy's sweet spot just gets you hit, instead, so for safety's sake you're tied to the weaker end of his attacks, essentially making him Marth, but with worse range and knockback on almost every move. I think the different sweet spot was supposed to be a point in Roy's favor, because Marth pretty much wins everything else in terms of raw data (damage, knockback, heaviness) except for being a larger target and falling slower.

He's never seemed quite that awful, though, since he's almost as hard to approach as Marth. I've always wondered how much of Roy's tiering has just been sort of-- why play him in a tournament when you can just pick Marth?

[ArmsAreLoud]

The Smash community has always sucked at making tiers. Always more based on experience than theory. It's why they get hilarious fuck ups like Jigglypuff's placing. Heheh.

[Milskidasith]

Tiers have to be based on both experience and theory, honestly. I mean, imagine if a character had a 1/60th second window you needed to hit perfectly every 1/20th of a second in order to chainstun any character to death, but couldn't do much otherwise. At that point theory says "broken as hell" but experience says "no human can actually do that."