[Complaints Thread] or The Bitch About Homestuck Thread

[elation2.0]

And while some people consider murderkillstab to be unforgivable, I am more forgiving of it yet I still hate Kanaya for how she treated Vriska. Because, you know, being a "nice guy" friend is an unforgivable sin compared to murder.

....how exactly did Kanaya treat Vriska? It seemed to me it went in this order.

1. Kanaya was friendly with Vriska, tried to help her. Secretly had romantic feelings
2. Vriska did not feel the same. Wasn't responsive to the latter gesture. Only mildly responsive to the former.
3. Kanaya is briefly upset at the sight of Vriska kissing Tavros.
4. Kanaya gets over it and decides it is best to distance herself from Vriska.
5. Kanaya punches Vriska once.

Like, I'm not seeing where she treated Vriska badly aside from that moment at the end? Its not like Vriska was some saintly person that didn't deserve to get punched in the face once.

[colwag]

It was more like.

Kanya was friendly with Vriska, secretly had romantic feelings.
Vriska did not feel the same.
Kanaya is upset at seeing Vriska kiss Tavros
Kanaya ignores Vriska for entire game as part of stupid spiteful mindgame instead of just stating her feelings.
Kanaya is not interested in Vriska at all if romance was not a possibility, making their previous friendship a total sham, held up only by her desire to be romantic with her. Insert friend coins until love comes out.
Kanaya focuses on new Internet Girlfriend, who is clearly quite important to her
Vriska, lacking a pacifying friend like Kanaya, kills Tavros.
Kanaya punts Gamzee, punches Vriska, disarms Eridan, and murders him while he's defenseless out of a lust for bloodshed
Vriska becomes much more responsive to Kanaya's actions
Kanaya ignores her in favor of checking on her Internet Girlfriend, and finding out that yes, she STILL can't do anything about her. So she just sorta gawks at her while walking away wordlessly.
Vriska does crazy things, still lacking a pacifying force.

Kanaya was kinda a mind game playing selfish bitch during the entire in comic relationship.

[Greyscale]

That is not a very accurate summary as it misses out a lot of key elements, such as Kanaya herself not being entirely cognizant of her true romantic feelings, and how Kanaya still wanted to talk to Vriska after she kissed Tavros but Vriska continued to ignore her, and so on.

And also, pinning Tavros's death on Kanaya? That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? I mean, consider the circumstances. Vriska has never shared her secret plans with Kanaya (or else Kanaya would have known why she was making Vriska a dress), so Vriska would have still been operating in secret to engineer Bec Noir's rise to power and also his defeat. Vriska secretly planning Noir's rise and defeat is what she bragged to Tavros. Bragging to Tavros is the reason they went into a fight and Vriska killed him. There isn't really that much space for Kanaya to shoosh pap her in that scenario, because you can't intervene in something you don't know is happening. Too much secrecy, too much reason to block herself off from potential meddlers, too much Vriska being Vriska.

[colwag]

I only blame her indirectly anyways. Heck, it's sorta Jade's fault too for not being nicer to Tavros if we're being this indirect. But yeah most of it's on Vriska herself, and Tavros second.

Kanaya not realizing her feelings does not forgive her from dumping Vriska, without a word, because she does not have any of her own. I mean there's plenty of reasons to break with Vriska, but Kanaya picked "Because she kissed somebody else."

And Kanaya tried once, Vriska was busy, she talked with Karkat, and it was nothing from there.

I don't put much blame on Kanaya at all for Tavros, to be honest. It's just "If she was closer to her overall through this, especially when on the meteor and they could interact face to face without having all the irons in the fire, then it might not have happened." But that's a lot of things that'd have to happen.

Although I'm not sure how "secret" it is and how hidden it is. She talked openly about how to fight Noir with Aradiabot, and Terezi was able to figure it out somehow. No idea how much Kanaya would know at the time. But really, I blame her for not giving a shit at all while on the meteor, mainly. Everything before hand is just going into her shitty reasons for not giving a shit, which are shitty.

[Greyscale]

I only blame her indirectly anyways. Heck, it's sorta Jade's fault too for not being nicer to Tavros if we're being this indirect. But yeah most of it's on Vriska herself, and Tavros second.

What, Jade too?
Yeah that's... yeah, that's too much.

Kanaya not realizing her feelings does not forgive her from dumping Vriska, without a word, because she does not have any of her own. I mean there's plenty of reasons to break with Vriska, but Kanaya picked "Because she kissed somebody else."

And Kanaya tried once, Vriska was busy, she talked with Karkat, and it was nothing from there.

Yo, we talked about this, a whole bunch of times. If it was just the kiss, then Kanaya wouldn't have kept trying to contact her afterwards. The kiss just triggered one of the many other reasons you haven't mentioned by letting Kanaya think about things. Kanaya doesn't just think Vriska isn't interested in her romantically, she thinks Vriska isn't interested her at all, and can you really blame her considering how Vriska treats her?

You know what, if you still disagree about anything I just wrote, PM me about this. I know I wasn't very responsive last time but I guess there's no avoiding it if this one specific discussion is going to repeat itself again and again and again on the forums all the time in places where it doesn't belong.

[elation2.0]

Kanaya can't break up with Vriska if they were never in a relationship. Kanaya wanted to be. When that wasn't going to happen, she calmly walked away from Vriska. She didn't really treat her with any kind of emotion. To call Rose her "new internet girlfriend" is stupidly inaccurate as we really haven't gotten anything other than jokes about what their relationship even is. They were nothing more than acquaintances at the time of Acts 1-5 as Kanaya had know Rose only for a few hours.

Kanaya killed Eridan because ERIDAN had killed her and another friend moments before. How is that hard to undderstand? Kanaya fucking watched Eridan kill Feferi with the weapon Kanaya helped him make. Don't you think Kanaya felt responsible for that in some way? That feeling of responsibility likely made her even angrier at the guy! Not to mention that Eridan went on to shoot the Matriorb and Kanay herself. Kanaya sawing Eridan in half was basically justified in any way you look at it because Eridan wanted them all dead.

Vriska may have needed a pacifying force, but Kanaya wasn't the one meant to do it. It was clear that Kanaya didn't want to be Vriska's Morail. It probably would have ended the same way Eridan and Fef's Moralleigance ended. I.E. a failure because neither of them wanted to be morails anyways. Sad but just the way it is. Kanaya's feelings would have gotten in the way of it.

Jade knew Tavros for all of, like, 1 day. She can't really be held accountable for any of his issues. In fact, Tavros's issues probably spawn from Vriska breaking his legs and making fun of him for having broken legs. And may I remind you that, on Alternia, broken legs are a death sentence. Whenever Vriska made fun of his broken legs, she was making fun of him because he was going to get culled so fucking hard. That would be quite a punch to one's self esteem.

[colwag]

The Jade comment was a joke anyways. :V

Nah, to that I'd just point out their chat during Alterniabound. Vriska asks what's up, says she sorta misses her, thinks Kanaya was interested romanticly in Tavros, and Kanaya pretty much just says please go away.

Vriska kinda proves herself interested in her friendways then, if nothing else there. I can't really talk about what went on during the game because we don't really know, although it's safe to say Vriska didn't go out of her way to talk to her because she was kinda busy helping win the game, and casual feelings chats were for later. And when Vriska tries to do that, Kanaya kicks her out.

I have a hard time believing that she'd think Vriska wasn't interested in her friendways when the big badass cocky bitch is constantly calling herself a moron in front of her. That kinda tells me that she was pretty damn close to her, no matter how you interpret "waste your feelings on" or whatever.

But I guess that's the last post I'll make on this subject with you, I guess. :V Feels better laid out here then PM.

[Greyscale]

Nah, to that I'd just point out their chat during Alterniabound. Vriska asks what's up, says she sorta misses her, thinks Kanaya was interested romanticly in Tavros, and Kanaya pretty much just says please go away.

Vriska kinda proves herself interested in her friendways then, if nothing else there.

And to that I'd say, Vriska, it's been several weeks, and you are a fairweather friend at best who only acknowledges Kanaya when everyone else is ignoring you.
That's not interest, that's, "Hey, you're convenient!"

I can't really talk about what went on during the game because we don't really know, although it's safe to say Vriska didn't go out of her way to talk to her because she was kinda busy helping win the game, and casual feelings chats were for later.

Vriska ignored everyone, including the voices in her head, by just doing sidequests.
Unimportant sidequests of little importance where casual chats, or even acknowledging voices in your head, can easily fit.
Vriska is notoriously a self-centered character and that doesn't change when Kanaya is involved. What Vriska did on the meteor was Too Little Too Late. Whatever "friendship" Vriska was interested in was obviously not all that valuable to her. It was low priority and not something she fought hard to keep. The fact that it was low priority is reflected in the comic. The fact that she did not fight hard to keep it is also reflected in the comic. There is not much to reflect the idea that she valued it any more than she valued her friendship with Equius, if even that much.

But I guess that's the last post I'll make on this subject with you, I guess. :V Feels better laid out here then PM.

Okay. Like I said, if you still disagree, feel free to PM me.

[colwag]

Kanaya can't break up with Vriska if they were never in a relationship. Kanaya wanted to be. When that wasn't going to happen, she calmly walked away from Vriska. She didn't really treat her with any kind of emotion. To call Rose her "new internet girlfriend" is stupidly inaccurate as we really haven't gotten anything other than jokes about what their relationship even is. They were nothing more than acquaintances at the time of Acts 1-5 as Kanaya had know Rose only for a few hours.

Kanaya killed Eridan because ERIDAN had killed her and another friend moments before. How is that hard to undderstand? Kanaya fucking watched Eridan kill Feferi with the weapon Kanaya helped him make. Don't you think Kanaya felt responsible for that in some way? That feeling of responsibility likely made her even angrier at the guy! Not to mention that Eridan went on to shoot the Matriorb and Kanay herself. Kanaya sawing Eridan in half was basically justified in any way you look at it because Eridan wanted them all dead.

Vriska may have needed a pacifying force, but Kanaya wasn't the one meant to do it. It was clear that Kanaya didn't want to be Vriska's Morail. It probably would have ended the same way Eridan and Fef's Moralleigance ended. I.E. a failure because neither of them wanted to be morails anyways. Sad but just the way it is. Kanaya's feelings would have gotten in the way of it.

Jade knew Tavros for all of, like, 1 day. She can't really be held accountable for any of his issues. In fact, Tavros's issues probably spawn from Vriska breaking his legs and making fun of him for having broken legs. And may I remind you that, on Alternia, broken legs are a death sentence. Whenever Vriska made fun of his broken legs, she was making fun of him because he was going to get culled so fucking hard. That would be quite a punch to one's self esteem.

Kanaya did not walk away. That would be if she told Vriska her feelings, how she didn't want to be friends/moirails/whatever anymore, and then they just stop hanging out. Kanaya just cut all contact with her out of her life.

The internet girlfriend comment was an exagerration, but it's still a pretty good sign how much she cared for Vriska; others on the meteor when her first priority when getting a new computer is "Check on the same image of her she's been staring at previous. Surprise: Nothing new happens" over contacting others and all.

And yeah Kanaya had her reasons for killing Eridan, but she still executed a defenseless troll, and the only seadweller left alive, out of a fit of rage. Which is kinda how Vriska killed Tavros, too. Revenge or not that is not something you do and somehow end up in the moral right. Not saying just let him go, but keep him defenseless and hopefully restrained in some way instead of flat out murder. No matter how understandably mad you are.

And would Kanaya's feelings really get in the way of the moirailship after she's dropped them? I mean, she has zero feelings for Vriska when they are on the meteor, as far as we can tell. What could get in the way then? Post punch, Vriska seemed all up and ready to be something with her, yet Kanaya strutted off to stare at Rose some more.

And the Jade comment was a joke. But it does bug me that people take her "Apologize for being crippled" comments at face value. She was kinda obviously trolling and antagonizing him for a reaction, which was her stupid form of "training". I mean she doesn't hate crippled people or anything I mean jeez.

[elation2.0]

And would Kanaya's feelings really get in the way of the moirailship after she's dropped them? I mean, she has zero feelings for Vriska when they are on the meteor, as far as we can tell. What could get in the way then? Post punch, Vriska seemed all up and ready to be something with her, yet Kanaya strutted off to stare at Rose some more.

Well, at first her feelings would get in the way because she wanted more from a relationship with Vriska. This was sorta what drove Eridan and Fef apart. Eridan didn't want to be morails with Fef either! And at the time, Vriska wouldn't really reciprocate so that wouldn't be good for a moraliegance wehn one party doesnt want to be morails. Afterwards, she was feeling bitter and burnt out towards Vriska, which would get in the way of being morails because she doesn't really want to interact with Vriska.

Like, maybe you're right to an extent she was at some fault in terms of how she shut Vriska out, but there was only so much she could do in terms of her own emotions and to say its "unforgivable" or that what Vriska did was Kanaya's fault is still an exaggeration and not particularly fair to Kanaya! Vriska needed help, sure, but it doesn't seem Kanaya was really in the emotional state to be the one to help her.

And I'm pretty sure there was nothing they could do for Eridan by that point. Like, Eridan may have shocked himself when he killed Fef to be honest. I don't know if Eridan would -want- to turn around because that'd mean taking responsibility for what he did. Also, just because he wasnt using the crosshairs doesnt mean he probably didn't have them. He was still very likely armed.

And the Jade comment was a joke. But it does bug me that people take her "Apologize for being crippled" comments at face value. She was kinda obviously trolling and antagonizing him for a reaction, which was her stupid form of "training". I mean she doesn't hate crippled people or anything I mean jeez.

Whether or not thats how Vriska actually felt changes absolutely nothing about the fact that she still did it.

[colwag]

I think the intentions on what Vriska was doing were kinda important in judging her for doing that. Unless we're going to call Kanaya and Terezi cold blooded murderers or something.

And I'm pretty sure Eridan wasn't armed because Ahab's Crosshairs were in a chest in the Seek the Highb100d walkaround. And he kinda made a big deal about throwing them away to Jade previously. And he was standing there with his arms in a "surrender" position, sobbing in a hilarious manner. I'm pretty sure he wasn't armed with all this put together.

And no what Kanaya did was not unforgivable. She just needs to own up to it and say hey I fucked up here and it's my fault. It's only unforgivable if she 1. Pretends nothing bad happened because of her actions, and 2. Continues to be uninteresting in every other aspect (to me, at least.)

I honestly have a hard time judging how willing Vriska was to be in this sort of moiraliegance, because if she didn't want her at all, she had harsher options availible then ignoring her on occasion.

And if Kanaya can't handle those emotions, then I'll have to hate her for that too. Because that makes her just as desperate and pathetic as Eridan, after all. And unwilling to put emotions aside for the good of literally everybody, considering how that choice kinda indirectly leads to everybody getting killed and all.

But it's not really that fair to Kanaya, but she has nothing else worthwhile for me to judge her on. :/

[Conspicuous]

So don't judge her?
If there's nothing worthwhile to judge her on, it just sounds like a giant waste of time.

[Greyscale]

The "killing a defenseless enemy is bad" argument is dumb because they weren't defenseless a second before they died. They only became defenseless during the process of getting killed, when they were disarmed. And you can't disarm someone unless they're armed to begin with.

Nobody considers Vriska's murder of Tavros immoral because she disarmed him first. They consider it immoral because they don't think Tavros did anything before the fight to deserve death. Eridan did. The two situations are wildly different; they are not similar because of a physical coincidence.

And if Kanaya can't handle those emotions, then I'll have to hate her for that too. Because that makes her just as desperate and pathetic as Eridan, after all.

Eridan was pathetic because he kept trying to force a relationship where it could never happen. Kanaya didn't do that, she did the opposite of that. She backed off and stopped pale-leading anyone on.

I'm sorry, a lot of these comparisons just seem extremely inaccurate if you look into more than one aspect of them, I just had to speak up about them.

[colwag]

The "killing a defenseless enemy is bad" argument is dumb because they weren't defenseless a second before they died. They only became defenseless during the process of getting killed, when they were disarmed. And you can't disarm someone unless they're armed to begin with.

Nobody considers Vriska's murder of Tavros immoral because she disarmed him first. They consider it immoral because they don't think Tavros did anything before the fight to deserve death. Eridan did. The two situations are wildly different; they are not similar because of a physical coincidence.



Eridan was pathetic because he kept trying to force a relationship where it could never happen. Kanaya didn't do that, she did the opposite of that. She backed off and stopped pale-leading anyone on.

I'm sorry, a lot of these comparisons just seem extremely inaccurate if you look into more than one aspect of them, I just had to speak up about them.

Wait Tavros did nothing to deserve being killed.

Did we miss the part where he charged at her with a lance with express intentions to kill her.

Like that is something that happened and all. (And yes, they do consider it immoral because she disarmed him first. It was proof that she did not need to kill him to "defeat" him and protect herself.)

And no, Eridan did not become defenseless when he died. He was defenseless after Kanaya made a show of taking away his wand, and he began to coward. That is pretty much a totally defenseless troll at that point, and it's hard to argue otherwise, really. :/

And yeah the comparison isn't really apt because Eridan was not forcing the relationship at all with Feferi at that point. He was focusing more on Sollux and that relationship instead, he was okay with just being "friends" with Feferi, which is more then Kanaya was willing to be. So he's less pathetic then her.

I'm just peeved off at all of Kanaya's wasted potential here. She had so many chances to do something right, and she fucked up all of them. Yet the fandom still treats her like a goody two shoes lawful good sort of character when she's kinda fucked up and selfish and shallow too. :/

[Wulf]

I wouldn't say Tavros did nothing to deserve getting killed, but Vriska wasn't in a position to have to kill him, either. If I recall correctly, she was already God-tiered at that point, right? Even if Tavros would've been able to pull it off and kill her, she wouldn't have stayed dead. Well, unless Paradox Spaced decided she deserved to, I suppose.

Eridan wasn't a threat at the moment of his death, but IIRC, his death was "Kanaya walks up to him after having a hole blasted in her stomach, snaps his wand in half, then chainsaws him in half, all within the same 20 or 30 second period. It wasn't like she snapped his wand and then went off to kick Gamzee out of his shoes, then came back around to kill a helpless Eridan. Even then, defenseless or no, Eridan deserved to die. He killed Feferi, assaulted Sollux (although I suppose you can maybe call that one self defense,) and destroyed their race's one hope for survival.

[elation2.0]

Did we miss the part where he charged at her with a lance with express intentions to kill her.

And how Vriska had basically been emotionally and physically torturing him his entire life? And goading him into fighting her when she knew he basically never had a chance? Vriska straight up wanted him to go on that charge. No two ways around it. And she decided that she would kill him on this charge as well.

Remember when she waved his severed legs around? "Yo Tavros remem8er how I 8roke your legs????????"

You blame Kanaya for not handling her emotions, but Vriska had the same fucking problems and you let her off scott free, blaming the other characters! The other characters who, case in point, didn't cripple a guy and then goad him into an obviously losing fight. According to you, its apparently everyone else's fault that Vriska was a bad person, which just isn't true. Maybe certain people could have helped her, but the people around Vriska are far from omniscient. She has a personality that repels people, so people aren't likely to see the potential she had and thus avoid her. Its not like they consciously knew that what they were doing would apparnetly lead to her shaking Tavros. Hell they all played a game with her and Eridan for 600 hours with few incidents, so it was probably a shock to most of them when this stuff broke out!

e: Like, apparently its Kanaya's fault that Vriska was full of emotional baggage and other problems, but not Vriska's fault that Tavros was a complete wreck in terms of self-esteem who eventually charged her with a lance because he couldn't take anymore?

[colwag]

I'm not saying that Vriska's a saint either. She just has interesting character traits to go along with being a bitch, that Kanaya does not. And that Vriska is constantly referred to as a bitch in the comic and the fandom, while Kanaya gets off scot free. I don't lay onto Vriska because everyone else does it for me.

Although I'd disagree about Vriska goading him, I just took that as regular trolling. She just wanted to hassle him, it was his idea to actually stand up and try to kill her finally.

But really, if anybody had any idea how dangerous Vriska could be, and was willing to give her help, it was Kanaya. And she threw it away because she was selfish about it all and continued being boring and useless otherwise.

The boring and useless otherwise is just me projecting how I feel about her non Vriska related roles in the story. But that's exclusive to her, other characters do interesting nonVriska things. Just not Kanaya. :/

[elation2.0]

Although I'd disagree about Vriska goading him, I just took that as regular trolling. She just wanted to hassle him, it was his idea to actually stand up and try to kill her finally.

When he finally arrived, she waved his severed legs around in front of him. It drove him to anger and made him charge her. That's goading! Much in the way a bull is goaded to charge the matador. And the bull is destined to lose.

[colwag]

When he finally arrived, she waved his severed legs around in front of him. It drove him to anger and made him charge her. That's goading! Much in the way a bull is goaded to charge the matador. And the bull is destined to lose.

Considering Tavros was throwing taunts right back at her, I can't blame her for that. He was already resigned to fighting her at that point.

"Goading" at that point means pretty much nothing if you're going to evaluate her morals.

...but really the Kanaya hate is more to justify my dislike of her throwing away the only interesting storyline she had, and walking away from Vriska without saying anything while staring at Rose yet again on her glasses. Which is a dick move under any circumstances, really.

[Conspicuous]

So Kanaya's only interesting storyline is about how Vriska only talks to her when Vriska wants someone to waste some meddling on her?

[colwag]

So Kanaya's only interesting storyline is about how Vriska only talks to her when Vriska wants someone to waste some meddling on her?

Kanaya doesn't have much to her, really. It's kinda sad.

[trulyElse]

if you're going to evaluate her morals.

What morals?

She's a textbook pychopath.

> All emotions are brief, before she moves on.
> Everything is made to be specifically about her. - see the "Make her pay" chain
> She's unable to truly feel sympathy. - her feelings for Tavros seem less of a relationship and more how one looks at their toys

Also: I think your hatred on Kanaya stems from the fact that you identify strongly with Vriska, seeing everything from her perspective. This is not a good perspective, trust me.

[Solaris]

Kanaya doesn't have much to her, really. It's kinda sad.

She has literally everything involving Rose, her conflict with being like her Ancestor as a mother to the other player-trolls and the entire troll race, and most recently, how to deal with black feelings on Gamzee.

This is not a good perspective, trust me.

As much as I am loathe to admit, Vriska was a lot more good than say, Azula.
Yea, she was sort of nutso and her purpose is to just go trololol, but she still had good, if selfish intentions (although I think of them more as selfish, but good actions) when she was going to fight Noir and when she was playing Sburb. Before the whole meteor shit, she and Tavros had a legitimately fun time!
Also, arguing with colwag about changing his mind on anything involving Vriska is as futile as trying to teach a brick wall how to play poker. Possibly more so.

[tea_jay]

The excessive deaths thing. It's always bugged me, and this recent update just brings it up again. I kinda figured we were headed for some violent deaths with the way things were going with uu/the Condesce/the null session, but I really didn't expect Jane and Roxy to die before they ever had a chance to DO anything. I suppose there IS a strong possibility that their deaths won't be permanent, but that just leaves me wondering WHY Jane and Roxy need to die in the first place. Even if it makes the deaths meaningless, I do hope they get brought back--because if they're not, that practically makes their entire EXISTENCE IN THE COMIC pointless (I feel the same way about the dead trolls--hopefully they'll get resurrected at some point, too).

Also: I really don't like uu. He's just not a very interesting villain, unlike say, Gamzee or Vriska or Eridan or Doc Scratch, who are just about as likable as they are detestable. It might just be my personal preference, but I like a villain who does terrible things but who has enough positive traits to make me want to excuse their actions and continue liking them. A villain that can cause that kind of inner conflict in the reader, where you want to hate them but you can't and you almost hate YOURSELF for not hating them, is a brilliantly written one. uu is just your stereotypical bad guy who we are clearly supposed to hate as he hasn't a single redeeming quality, and that's just fairly boring to me--also disappointing, if he is in fact some form of Lord English like many are speculating. We hadn't been shown much of LE, but I'd hoped he'd be just as interesting as the rest of Hussie's villains have been--hell, even Bec Noir is likable because GOOD DOG, BEST FRIEND.

[Legendary]

I find it hilarious that you call Gamzee an interesting villain when so many complaints a few months ago were about how Gamzee was a dull and uninspired villain. If uu is supplanted by another villain, I expect people will list uu as a better villain than his successor and also call uu super awesome and shit.

Not attacking your opinions personally, mind you, since you only have 42 posts and thus probably aren't guilty of the hypocrisy I'm implying. It's just funny.