Maid of Blood Flasks

[Captain Cake]

I glad you're so confident, but that isn't true.

Only time players can wield time themed items properly because The Power Was In Them All Along.

This hasn't been proven with 100% certainty, though. It's certainly never been explicitly stated (unless Hussie said so on his formspring I guess) and we haven't seen a non-time player attempt to use them before.

Not to mention that if that were true, Gamzee having Aradia's time things would be pointless.

The only one that wasn't inexplicably murdered was obviously Sollux's, who he also dragged off with Vriska's body.

Come to think of it, it's sort of ridiculous that the person with more opportunities to die than the others was also one of the few who hasn't actually got murdered by anybody.

[killerlamb]

but Gamzee's a bard. bards do what they want, you can't hold them to the rules

[Cervos]

Gamzee still has the tell-tale cut marks on his face, but his makeup is applied normally (Sobered up, it looked sloppy and smeared on)

But if it wasn't obvious, all of these potions are the same color blood as any troll with a nimble rotting corpse on the meteor, and that's it.

The only one that wasn't inexplicably murdered was obviously Sollux's, who he also dragged off with Vriska's body.

This hasn't been proven with 100% certainty, though. It's certainly never been explicitly stated (unless Hussie said so on his formspring I guess) and we haven't seen a non-time player attempt to use them before.

Not to mention that if that were true, Gamzee having Aradia's time things would be pointless.

There's never been a reason to argue it. They were LITERALLY made to play the game. You can tell with some ancestor things (Life extension, sight obscuration) outside of the game, yeah.

In the game, they dont' need to go godtier, and it's not like much changes for them really. John could do the windy thing, for example

FURTHER EDITS:

I see this topic title and think of Frankie Munez




D4V3 1S TH1S YOU

[Ace of Dark-Hearts]

but Gamzee's a bard. bards do what they want, you can't hold them to the rules

Don't we keep saying the same things about Rogues?

This hasn't been proven with 100% certainty, though. It's certainly never been explicitly stated (unless Hussie said so on his formspring I guess) and we haven't seen a non-time player attempt to use them before.

Not to mention that if that were true, Gamzee having Aradia's time things would be pointless.

I'm at pretty positive it has been mentioned in comic by someone (Doc Scratch, I think?) that Rose never needed her wands for her power, and I think it's fairly safe to apply the same principals to everyone else seeing as we haven't seen a god tier use an item like that for their aspect.

[killerlamb]

Don't we keep saying the same things about Rouges?

not that I remember? Rogues just steal things... but Bards are explicitly wild cards

[The Illusive Man]

D4V3 1S TH1S YOU

N0.

Anyway, I consider Gamzee's role to be the Big-Lipped Alligator. His moment seems like apparent filler - honestly, Jane does not think any of the potions do anything meaningful. Gamzee might have something significant, but the moment of introducing the significance just seems out-of-place. Considering that there's no puzzle, I don't know how the hell to get out of that menu.

Hussie could also be saying, "Hey, April 20th is when I plan on updating again - Until then, have this Big-Lipped Alligator Moment, since I didn't have much else planned for today."

[Dhakka]

I glad you're so confident, but that isn't true.

Only time players can wield time themed items properly because The Power Was In Them All Along.

We've already seen him use other players weapons. There isn't anything to stop him from using Aradia's time-tables, besides your word of mouth that he can't because "Only time players can wield them". :V

[Ace of Dark-Hearts]

not that I remember? Rogues just steal things... but Bards are explicitly wild cards

That was rhetorical, we do keep saying that.

And I don't think that we can really consider Bards to be a wildcard in the sense that they break rules set for explicit reasons such as the characters not needing their weapons. That would be kind of stupid.

Also oh nooooo you have quoted my grave error

[Captain Cake]

I'm at pretty positive it has been mentioned in comic by someone (Doc Scratch, I think?) that Rose never needed her wands for her power, and I think it's fairly safe to apply the same principals to everyone else seeing as we haven't seen a god tier use an item like that for their aspect.

Okay, that does make sense. It does mean that Gamzee using them is likely because of being a bard or Jokerkind or something then, because there aren't really many other plausible explanations.

E: Unless wands act differently or something? Because they're the only other example of an item with aspect related powers that we've seen being used and are based around 'magic' whereas time travel devices aren't exactly uncommon. God tiers seem to be capable of more of that stuff anyway so that isn't necessarily that relevant of a point - see Rose suddenly getting seer of light powers with extremely little build up.

E2: And as Fish says time is more literal of an aspect than light and hope, which are more metaphorical and vague respectively.

[Fish]

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RESPONSES that got out of hand

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I know I hate my old ones. Because at one point I had a Twilight reference in my username. And later on, I cannot tell you the whole thing, but it contained the word "skary."
I think usernames remind us of our past-selves, who it is natural to hate.

I think my usernames remind me of my many selves, who are naturally great. I used to hate one of my older usernames, but now I'm pretty chill with it and everything else.

What is this? Eridan/Kanaya ectobiology child?

ifxed that emoticon for you

People really like the idea of connecting elements in Homestuck, and one of the element is CotL, with the Calamacaacas in it. So, because the CoTL in b1 referred to the trolls, so we want to connect B2 CotL To trolls, and the only Trolls we have is UU/uu, whic hseems ripe for being both/nighter gender, or gendered dreamselves with a nongendered body.

dude I cannot stop from thinking you are way cool
Calamacaacas
fuck

It suddenly strikes me that we haven't seen Jane strife yet. I really want to see what kind of damage she can do with that most deadly of weapons, a spoon.

I use spoons as weapons all the time.
They can actually be pretty sharp.

so what if ashdenej's avatar is him burying his face in a pillow made of comic discussion

Okay I think this is the first one?

Hussie doesn't joke about canon (except concerning fantrolls)

LIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS they're just all dead on UU's planet.

Did we summon Gamzee into LOCAH?

yes.

Is it possible to take Seb back down with you at the end of Myststuck Part 1?
In which case how is he suddenly back at the lights when Jane is in the cave?

AR also says "But I can still monitor your progress through Lil Sebastian," even though the robot bunny should probably not be able to see her. Unless he is being carried along.
shit is hilarious lampshading

So these two updates sorta kinda support my theory (though the pre-meteor codtiering is perhaps more valid given the scratches, I'll assume that the scratches are as important to Gamzee's character as Dave's sword). Because someone snaps a picture of a god tier bed in a dreambubble and alchemises it, and poof shitloads of god tier beds and god tiers don't mean anything any more except of course that dreambubbles are a finite resource and shit.
Actually, now that I think about this, this totally confirms my Eridan/Equius 2x godtier revival combo funtime party lunch.
Also it means that the Eridan who killed everyone was from a doomed timeline and just returned with the music boxes. He died because he was doomed.
Awwwwwwww yeah.
wait what if doomed selves are only doomed to die because they're going to die
like
the alpha timeline is actually the timeline in which everyone lives forever

I knew it as soon AS I LOOKED AT THE POTIONS
!!!!!! WHAT NOW!!!!

Rude!Holly is the best.

I have to say, Gamzee is probably one of my least favorite insane characters in, like, anything. Bard Quest callback is good though, it's like the second callback it's ever gotten. I think I'm much more a fan of Bard Quest than most people here?

Bard Quest is my favourite MS Paint Adventure and also Gamzee is my favourite insane character in it. Also your avatar is amazing.

IF you bothered to back-read, you would have seen that I have made other comments about Gamzee's tragix love affair with tavros's severed head. It is a favorite topic of conversation for me.

Sorry but gaymzee was WAY AHEAD OF YOU.
gaymzee is pretty weird.

sqigfifties:

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I'm reading through HS again, and I just noticed This Page.
Did we ever get an explanation as to what Grandpa was doing on LOWAS?

Nope, current favourite theory is that he used fenestrated planes and/or returned to Earth via Skaian portal.
wait fuck here's a possibility I hadn't yet considered
what if he entered through a small plane, then found/built the ship in the veil, THEN did stuff
yep
i am greet

Also Gamzee's obviously carting around those potions not for direct alchemisation, but so Jane will use her recipe modus on them and make living friends again! Except it won't work :o(

I'm at pretty positive it has been mentioned in comic by someone (Doc Scratch, I think?) that Rose never needed her wands for her power, and I think it's fairly safe to apply the same principals to everyone else seeing as we haven't seen a god tier use an item like that for their aspect.

hey yeah I saw this convo going down earlier in the thread and a guy who was pretty smart said that just because Rose had the power in her all along time players haven't had anything like that
I mean
majjyks aren't really related to Rose's aspect (therefore innate ability => like troll powers)
whereas time kind of really is tied to aspect

[killerlamb]

That was rhetorical, we do keep saying that.

And I don't think that we can really consider Bards to be a wildcard in the sense that they break rules set for explicit reasons such as the characters not needing their weapons. That would be kind of stupid.

Also oh nooooo you have quoted my grave error

maybe not break rules, but go against previously held guidelines, yeah. your way too rigid in your thinking. give me the link to the page that doc scratch said whatever about time pieces and I bet I can find a loophole - wording things misleadingly is kind of doc scratch's thing.
and we don't know that their isn't a reason yet, you're making assumptions about things.
I'm not even arguing for anything in particular, I'm just arguing against these assumptions that things are impossible. we tend to forget that WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING YET

see, this is what I'm talking about people focusing on what's impossible rather than what's possible. when you do that you close yourself off to a lot of things. it's because of this kind of mindset that my suggestions that it would take the b1 kids 3 years to reach the new session was dismissed (and guess who was right about that oh yeah me)

(just a note, I'm not talking about ace in particular, just general tendencies I see more often then I'd like in the forums (and the people in general))

[LMLYP]

Anyway, I consider Gamzee's role to be the Big-Lipped Alligator. His moment seems like apparent filler - honestly, Jane does not think any of the potions do anything meaningful. Gamzee might have something significant, but the moment of introducing the significance just seems out-of-place. Considering that there's no puzzle, I don't know how the hell to get out of that menu. Hussie could also be saying, "Hey, April 20th is when I plan on updating again - Until then, have this Big-Lipped Alligator Moment, since I didn't have much else planned for today."

this is what tropers actually believe

nothing in a good story - especially homestuck jesus fucking christ are we reading the same webcomic? - is "filler". gamzee is a god and he's come back in time to accomplish something. the fact that this is presented humorously doesnt mean its not important!

[Ace of Dark-Hearts]

We've already seen him use other players weapons. There isn't anything to stop him from using Aradia's time-tables, besides your word of mouth that he can't because "Only time players can wield them". :V

You're misquoting me. I said that they wouldn't be able to wield them properly. As in, using the aspect power that they were designed to do. Like, Gamzee could, "wield," the timetables, but he wouldn't be able to use their special powers.

Okay, that does make sense. It does mean that Gamzee using them is likely because of being a bard or Jokerkind or something then, because there aren't really many other plausible explanations.

E: Unless wands act differently or something? Because they're the only other example of an item with aspect related powers that we've seen being used and are based around 'magic' whereas time travel devices aren't exactly uncommon. God tiers seem to be capable of more of that stuff anyway so that isn't necessarily that relevant of a point - see Rose suddenly getting seer of light powers with extremely little build up.

I don't think the wands are any different. It's just the manifestation of the subconscious rejection of Rose's element, or darkness. The wands were wands of darkness. It seems to fit just fine, in my opinion.

[Anarel]

Shit, I'm laughing my ass off with this update. The music, the sudden twist of events, the shop, the potions... gog, this is so MoThErFuCkInG awesome!

On a side note, I do believe that Gamzee was godtier all along. Like Vriska, he didn't tell anyone. Why? Probably because being a Bard (and considering Gamzee's personality) he pretty much does whatever he wants to do. As he says: "YoU jUsT gOt To Be GoInG wItH wHaT fEeLs RiGhT aT wHeRe YoUr HeArT's Up In, YoU kNoW?". So, being not bound by the rules that holds most players (consider what UU said about Bards) he can go wherever he wants and do whatever "feels right at where your heart's up in". BUT, how did he manage to use Aradia's time tables and why is he suddenly helping out (or something) Jane? I honestly don't know. Maybe he induced Aradia to lend him her time tables for a while like he induced the idea for Lil' Cal into Dave and John's minds? Or, we just call shenanigans. But I doubt it would be just that, there has to be a reason, though I know Homestuck has a tendency for silly shenanigans, there's few loose straws out there. I'm sure there is a reason and that it has to do with the fact that Gamzee is a Bard. I think that aspects and roles are not so bounding or limited and that this has been hinted through UUs explanations. Thus, maybe the Bard role is like a joker (both relating to him being a clown and the wild card in a card game) in the sense that, in a given situation, he can use the abilities of other roles, maybe aspects too, but I'm not sure about that one.

[LMLYP]

You're misquoting me. I said that they wouldn't be able to wield them properly. As in, using the aspect power that they were designed to do. Like, Gamzee could, "wield," the timetables, but he wouldn't be able to use their special powers.

this is just speculation. it's (probably) true that only their rightful owners are automatically proficient in using artifacts like the timeboxes. but i think it's quite likely that being a "wildcard class" enables the Bard to use other classes' powers in a limited way under certain circumstances.

anyway, he obviously did use the timeboxes to travel through time, so why would you complain about how he shouldnt be able to use them?

[ChrisSprite]

I think the tables have a little bit of Time powers available for people who aren't of the Time Aspect but mostly can only be used to it's fullest potential by those with the Time aspect.

And the Wands are a strange subject but I don't think they have anything to do with class or aspect. Just based on how they were alchemized and what was used in there alchemization.
Just my thoughts not taking a side or anything <.<

[Ace of Dark-Hearts]

maybe not break rules, but go against previously held guidelines, yeah. your way too rigid in your thinking. give me the link to the page that doc scratch said whatever about time pieces and I bet I can find a loophole - wording things misleadingly is kind of doc scratch's thing.
and we don't know that their isn't a reason yet, you're making assumptions about things.
I'm not even arguing for anything in particular, I'm just arguing against these assumptions that things are impossible. we tend to forget that WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING YET

see, this is what I'm talking about people focusing on what's impossible rather than what's possible. when you do that you close yourself off to a lot of things. it's because of this kind of mindset that my suggestions that it would take the b1 kids 3 years to reach the new session was dismissed (and guess who was right about that oh yeah me)

(just a note, I'm not talking about ace in particular, just general tendencies I see more often then I'd like in the forums (and the people in general))

While this is a generally good thing to do, I think in cases like this wouldn't be very applicable. Wild theorizing centered around the subversion or the subtle twisting of previously well founded principles of a story, such as the possibility that the powers the weapons supposedly supply players of Sburb with were in them all along (which would be kind of an aesop, I think?), wouldn't really be a sensible mode of thought. When you start to manipulate the laws and mechanics of a story like you are supposing, they start to lose their effect, which is NOT good writing.

Free thinking is good, yes, but within reasonable boundaries provided by canon.

this is just speculation. it's (probably) true that only their rightful owners are automatically proficient in using artifacts like the timeboxes. but i think it's quite likely that being a "wildcard class" enables the Bard to use other classes' powers in a limited way under certain circumstances.

anyway, he obviously did use the timeboxes to travel through time, so why would you complain about how he shouldnt be able to use them?

Is it that obvious? There aren't any conceivable possibilities left that would even begin to explain why he might have ended up there?

[Fish]

You're misquoting me. I said that they wouldn't be able to wield them properly. As in, using the aspect power that they were designed to do. Like, Gamzee could, "wield," the timetables, but he wouldn't be able to use their special powers.
I don't think the wands are any different. It's just the manifestation of the subconscious rejection of Rose's element, or darkness. The wands were wands of darkness. It seems to fit just fine, in my opinion.

Rose's power was In Her All Along. The wands were more material objects that opened her mind to believing in her own mangic.
I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and say that Dave's timetables and Aradia's music boxes ARE inherently mangic. That is, they really do time travvel. Because time travel is not all that odd in Homestuck. It's Dave's and Aradia's time aspect that allows them to figure shit out and tell when a timeline is doomed, and when they get the tiger they can travel at will.

I just want to have salamanders get hold of turntops is that so wrong.

[killerlamb]

While this is a generally good thing to do, I think in cases like this wouldn't be very applicable. Wild theorizing centered around the subversion or the subtle twisting of previously well founded principles of a story, such as the possibility that the powers the weapons supposedly supply players of Sburb with were in them all along (which would be kind of an aesop, I think?), wouldn't really be a sensible mode of thought. When you start to manipulate the laws and mechanics of a story like you are supposing, they start to lose their effect, which is NOT good writing.

Free thinking is good, yes, but within reasonable boundaries provided by canon.

omg. no. are you listening to anything that anyone is saying? you are making assumptions and then saying they are hard and fast rules, no. bad.

and pulling out the "this is bad writing" argument should be banned. it's a horrible stupid argument, as soon as someone pulls it out I generally take it to mean that everything they are arguing is going to inevitably be proven wrong by the story. Hussie in unpredictable, something that you think would be "bad" writing could very well work because that is the nature of Homestuck.

basically, loosen up, stop thinking so rigidly. this is art, not math. stop getting so hung up on the tiny details, take a few steps back, and just let it happen.

[Captain Cake]

Is it that obvious? There aren't any conceivable possibilities left that would even begin to explain why he might have ended up there?

That's only part of the issue. If Gamzee really didn't use the time things to get there (at least the when part of it), then why does he have them in the first place in the open like that? What would be the point in showing them? There's pretty much no time when something like that is out there deliberately to confuse us unless it's a joke or simply hasn't been explained yet, so they must logically have been used by Gamzee at some point - especially when there's few other conceivable ways he could have got to B2 at that point in time when no one else has yet.

[Ace of Dark-Hearts]

omg. no. are you listening to anything that anyone is saying? you are making assumptions and then saying they are hard and fast rules, no. bad.

and pulling out the "this is bad writing" argument should be banned. it's a horrible stupid argument, as soon as someone pulls it out I generally take it to mean that everything they are arguing is going to inevitably be proven wrong by the story. Hussie in unpredictable, something that you think would inevitably be "bad" writing could very well work because that is the nature of Homestuck.

How am I making assumptions? The only thing that could be considered an assumption would be the part where I call the changing of well founded rules in a story bad writing.

I'm sorry, but I think it's generally bad writing to change rules in a story all willy-nilly. It started to cloud the objectives and the whole point of the story. Is that a better reason? Besides, Hussie always makes sure to stick to established standards in Homestuck.

I just completely disagree with the whole train of thought that we should theorize everything because why not. There has to be limits somewhere.

That's only part of the issue. If Gamzee really didn't use the time things to get there (at least the when part of it), then why does he have them in the first place in the open like that? What would be the point in showing them? There's pretty much no time when something like that is out there deliberately to confuse us unless it's a joke or simply hasn't been explained yet, so they must logically have been used by Gamzee at some point - especially when there's few other conceivable ways he could have got to B2 at that point in time when no one else has yet.

I'm sure they have a purpose. I'm just saying that I think saying that Gamzee can use time powers is a bit of a stretch as of yet.

[Fish]

quick explanation if I'm reading aodh right???

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one of the aradiobats never actually died
gamzee took it in and nursed it like a tiny bird under his wings
built a motherfuckign nexst on the meteor (he captchalogued her right after the whole BIG THING THER EWITH JACK through the meerkat modus)
raised her to be Strong and also waifu
then one day she implanted herself into the turntops, giving them autonomy
she went back in time to Fight Jack and Died
then Gamzee went back In Time too and garbed his godtire bed
then he was all hella meracles but it turned out that she didn't actually fight jack she went back tin time to kill him here
(it was at night so everyone was sleeping and no one noticed the rageface in skaia at the time)
(maybe it whas while they were fighting the king Who Nowos!????)
so then they all up and go yoooooooooooooooooo and sleice and he's dead
but it didn't work right
so he goes forward intime with the autonomous turntops and he's crazy angry
but yeah he goes back to whare he left off on the meteor except neow he's crazy and he kills some eeps and kerkat calms him
then he finishes nursing back the chick to health and she goes back int ime to take gamzee back in time and kill him
then the meteor lands
then gamzee goes back in time with the autonomous turntops
it's fucking miracles[/spooiler]

e: okay, you said NO theorising
well how are we supposed to explain gamzee's presence then?

[ChrisSprite]

How am I making assumptions? The only thing that could be considered an assumption would be the part where I call the changing of well founded rules in a story bad writing.

I'm sorry, but I think it's generally bad writing to change rules in a story all willy-nilly. It started to cloud the objectives and the whole point of the story. Is that a better reason? Besides, Hussie always makes sure to stick to established standards in Homestuck.

But didn't Hussie change the rules of the story on his own in act 6? Not giving the Alpha Kids an aspect of Time or Space? Among other questionable things he did with the Alpha kids session.
I'm not saying I don't agree with you but I'm just clearing things up in my mind.
<.< Gotta ask questions or I'm just gonna be another Karkat in this forum yelling about something Im not 100% sure about.

[Captain Cake]

I'm sure they have a purpose. I'm just saying that I think saying that Gamzee can use time powers is a bit of a stretch as of yet.

I'm not saying that Gamzee has time powers himself, just that he can use devices which have time powers inherently and regardless of who uses them. Though I may be misunderstanding what you said and that you don't think that's true, in which case I guess it would be time to agree to disagree.

But didn't Hussie change the rules of the story on his own in act 6? Not giving the Alpha Kids an aspect of Time or Space? Among other questionable things he did with the Alpha kids session.
I'm not saying I don't agree with you but I'm just clearing things up in my mind.
<.< Gotta ask questions or I'm just gonna be another Karkat in this forum yelling about something Im not 100% sure about.

The B2 session do have a time and space player, as well as a light and breath one for that matter. They just haven't arrived yet. Hence why the frog temple has 8 things surrounding it (disregarding the one that represents derse) and UU has said that the B2 kids have to pave way for the arrival of the gods.

[killerlamb]

How am I making assumptions? The only thing that could be considered an assumption would be the part where I call the changing of well founded rules in a story bad writing.

I'm sorry, but I think it's generally bad writing to change rules in a story all willy-nilly. It started to cloud the objectives and the whole point of the story. Is that a better reason? Besides, Hussie always makes sure to stick to established standards in Homestuck.

"well founded rules"
what well founded rules???? what everyone else is arguing is that they aren't well founded rules. you're assuming they are hard set in stone rules that can't be broken by anything. it is ESTABLISHED that bards are wild cards, it's not some world shattering leap of logic to think that if anyone would be ble to wield a time device at least seme-effectively it owuld be them. loosen up.

you should be constantly asking yourself "what assumptions am I making?" and you should be reevaluation those assumptions

when you get stuck in this mode of thought you just negate everything. you only see what's impossible. and you aren't going to get any right answers without first coming up with a lot of wrong answers. instead of dwelling and arguing about what doesn't work try to find what variations or alternatives might would work.

when someone comes to me with a theory, I don't immediately think "okay, this is wrong because ....", I think "okay, is there a way this could be possible?"


just.... uuuuuuurgh. I think what we have here is a fundamental, irreconcilable difference in mode of thought.