IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[Scarlet Smiles]

I remember something about a page where Gamzee was described at the most important character in all of homestuck? Or perhaps I was imagining that. At the time I assumed it was because he was the one to 'curse' the kid's session, but now I'm not sure.... It could be simply forshadowing for what is about to happen.

It might not be in the traditional "big hero" level of importance. Aradia was extremely important to the troll session, yet the "main"
troll protagonist is Karkat, the leader. Gamzee has been described as a plot device character. He's important due to his actions and their effects, not necessarily because he's the most central cast member. He's a Bard, remember, and Bards will often single handily cause their teams success or failure via their wildcard tendencies.
UU sez so.

Also, JaneXGamzee will soon be motherfucking cannon. Called it.

[Scarlet Smiles]

The prophecies in the recent flash heavily foreshadows that all of the B2 kids minus Jane will lose either their dreamself or realself. When I first played through it, I thought of the Squiddles song from coloUrs and mayhem, and imagined Jane running from the drones on her own. Then Gamzee showed up and basically ruined that theory.

[fractalVacancy]

Edit: "Karkat could conceivably be slightly mutated in his pre/post scratch form because there were 24 test tubes with the troll ectobiology, and we are not quite sure how it works. Or perhaps one of the grubs mutated when going through the gates."
... unlikely yes, but then again, this is Homestuck. Weirder things have happened.

I'm pretty sure his point was that Karkat would have to be mutated in both A1 and A2 - it's less that they're genetically identical and more that they are the same individual physically, because of how the Scratch works - one grub was sent to both universes, only the time was different.

[Juju]

The gate thing would be interesting, seeing how the gates change from green to red

It's a completely silly IDE though

[tangerine]

I'm pretty sure his point was that Karkat would have to be mutated in both A1 and A2 - it's less that they're genetically identical and more that they are the same individual physically, because of how the Scratch works - one grub was sent to both universes, only the time was different.

They're genetically the same, but they aren't literally the same individual. The Trolls that we know were created in the pre-scratch universe and the pre-scratch Trolls were created by Karkat in the post-scratch universe. It's not known if this is how it will work for the kids' scratched session because of the special properties involved.

As for the color of pre-scratch Karkat's blood... other than the fact that it's not any different than Karkat's because they're genetically identical, I don't know how it matters. If we were to see a pre-scratch Hero of Blood, then it would be the pre-scratch Sufferer and not Karkat, and we already know that the Sufferer's blood color is the same as Karkat's. We know that his blood color is the same before and after the scratch with an even greater certainty because we saw his blood color when he was a grub right after Karkat made him. It wouldn't make much sense for the gate to have changed pre-scratch Sufferer's blood color for absolutely no reason other than "hey, why not", especially since the other two pre-scratch trolls that we've seen so far aren't mutated in any way.

[FowlJ]

They're genetically the same, but they aren't literally the same individual. The Trolls that we know were created in the pre-scratch universe and the pre-scratch Trolls were created by Karkat in the post-scratch universe. It's not known if this is how it will work for the kids' scratched session because of the special properties involved.

As for the color of pre-scratch Karkat's blood... other than the fact that it's not any different than Karkat's because they're genetically identical, I don't know how it matters. If we were to see a pre-scratch Hero of Blood, then it would be the pre-scratch Sufferer and not Karkat, and we already know that the Sufferer's blood color is the same as Karkat's.

No, that's not right. There was no ectobiology in the pre scratch trolls universe. Karkat created everyone, and due to weird time shit they actually went to both universes. Likewise, there is no ectobiology in the new session, because the babies John created are the kids from the new session, in addition to being the guardians from the old session.

[Vanymstorm]

This is a great theory, and I really like it, but Nanna died before Grandpa. Nanna was killed by Johns newborn ass, whereas Jade grew up with Grandpa.

Grandpa and Jake do both have the same cause of death, though: Mysterious Circumstances. (Oh when will they find a cure?)

[Hytheter]

They're genetically the same, but they aren't literally the same individual. The Trolls that we know were created in the pre-scratch universe and the pre-scratch Trolls were created by Karkat in the post-scratch universe.

AFAIK This is false, and both Pre- and Post-Scratch trolls were created by Karkat in the A2 session.
Edit: Ninja'd by FowlJ

separate edit:
Is there actually explanation for how Jade's Grandpa gets into the medium? There's like a huge gap in what he actually does in Homestuck.
Meteor Lands, raised with Nanna->Leaves to find adventure->???->Is in the medium->Goes back to Earth, finds/raises Jade, dies
The ??? is actually a huge gap, and includes thing like him getting into the medium somehow, and the fact that there are probably two Grandpa's on Earth at the same time at some point...
Any ideas?

[tangerine]

No, that's not right. There was no ectobiology in the pre scratch trolls universe. Karkat created everyone, and due to weird time shit they actually went to both universes. Likewise, there is no ectobiology in the new session, because the babies John created are the kids from the new session, in addition to being the guardians from the old session.

If you have any proof for that instead of just you writing it, then it would be great, but reading scratch's explanation...

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scr...p?s=6&p=005953

... It isn't mentioned anywhere that they did not work any ectobiology. It mentions that they were not created in their own session and they did not recognize that their session was not the session that they were created in, which directly implies that they thought that their ecto-babies were themselves initially. That direct implication leads to: if those ecto-babies were not them, then they had to be the post-scratch Trolls.

The only thing that you could argue with this information is that it's not literally stated that the pre-scratch trolls created the post-scratch trolls, but, with all of the information that's presented, it's basically the only logical conclusion. Ectobiology occurs even within null sessions, and the pre-scratch Troll session wasn't even a null session; it was just a session that they couldn't win. Unless you have some source of information other than this, there's nothing that points to there being no ectobiology in the pre-scratch Troll session.

[The_Codfish]

tangerine: Rose basically explained this already to Dave. During the intermission. There were even pictures to illustrate the point.

[linkman0596]

weird ass thought but could be an interesting plot point later, the tablets mentions the beta planets, so is there a chance they'll be entered into the portal rotation. as in, will the alpha kids travel to the beta planets as part of their quest or will they just be extras or something? what makes this really interesting to me though, is that roxy and dirk's adult dead bodies should still be on them for them to find.

extra points, dirk's should still have his sword in it since dave couldn't remove it. could we end up with a dual katana weilding dirk?!

[tangerine]

tangerine: Rose basically explained this already to Dave. During the intermission. There were even pictures to illustrate the point.

... and here's another one, still not providing any actual proof for the Trolls' situation, which makes it annoying for me to be the one to go back and verify everything in order to illustrate my point. Well, I did just that. Guess what? Rose doesn't mention anything about how it worked for the Trolls' scratch ecto shenanigans. She elaborates on how it is for the kids' scratch ecto shenanigans, in which she details that their ecto babies were sent to a separate universe instead. It doesn't mention whether these same babies are their group in their universe or not, which is why I didn't state anything concrete about the kids' ecto stuff.

Again, if you actually have any proof that dismisses the only logical conclusion based on the information that has been presented, then that would be great. Don't just say "this happened at this time" and expect me to go look it up for you, because it's getting annoying to do that only to find that I'm not wrong and what you say happened didn't actually happen.

[mysteriousOutsider]

Okay here's the thing. The solid evidence gives equal support to both theories.

BUT

A single ectobiology session has precedent! So I think it's more likely.

ALSO

it's great how you're so right all the time, keep that up

[tangerine]

Okay here's the thing. The solid evidence gives equal support to both theories.

BUT

A single ectobiology session has precedent! So I think it's more likely.

If you're referring to the Beta kids' session, then I agree that it does look to be that way, but it isn't something that's been solidified yet. There's still the problem that the Beta ecto babies were completely sent to the Alpha universe. It raises questions as to how the Beta kids came to be in the first place given that they were never sent back during their own session. If it was just a separate timeline thing, then that would be a reasonable explanation, but Rose describes it as creating a completely different reality over the old one.

it's great how you're so right all the time, keep that up

I'm a little confused with this last bit. Are you being sarcastic? When I've stated something that was wrong before and somebody corrected it then I admitted my mistake and I thanked that person for clearing up the info. I intend to do the same if I'm corrected again, which is why I state that it would be great if there was any proof against what's logical at this point.

[reignonyourparade]

which directly implies that they thought that their ecto-babies were themselves initially

No it doesn't: they could just have easily simply not have realized that ectobiology was a thing and assumed that they were the product of normal reproduction.

[tangerine]

No it doesn't: they could just have easily simply not have realized that ectobiology was a thing and assumed that they were the product of normal reproduction.

I don't think that you fully understand what an implication is if you're just refuting one with "no it doesn't" and "it could be something else". Yes; it could be something else, just like if I stated that I was born on Earth then you could infer that I'm a lion--that is, if you're only relying on the single fact that I was born on Earth--, although it's pretty much directly implied that I'm not a lion because I'm acting like a human and doing things that only humans are known to be able to do. The direct implication that I'm referring to takes every parameter into account rather than just a single statement, such as the fact that they're a part of a S***B session and every session depicted thus far have tell-tale signs, with absolutely no evidence that contradicts these recurring signs for the pre-scratch Troll session.

It is not as likely that they assumed something else because there's nothing to indicate that something radically different would have occurred in their session, and so it's far more reasonable to think that, since their session was just a normal session that they just didn't have any chance of winning, the tell-tale signs were all there. If you think that it is just as likely then you should also think that it's just as likely that I'm a lion as it is that I'm a human, because that's the logic that's at work when you state that something with next to no evidence supporting it is just as likely as something with mounds of evidence supporting it.

[FowlJ]

which directly implies that they thought that their ecto-babies were themselves initially.

No it doesn't: they could just have easily simply not have realized that ectobiology was a thing and assumed that they were the product of normal reproduction.

Exactly. You can't say that my point is invalid because it's never stated that there wasn't ectobiology, and then make a counter argument that ignores the fact that it wasn't stated that there was ectobiology.

[tangerine]

Exactly. You can't say that my point is invalid because it's never stated that there wasn't ectobiology, and then make a counter argument that ignores the fact that it wasn't stated that there was ectobiology.

I never stated that your point was invalid, only that it's not the closest thing to being the truth by a fair margin right now. I've stated that if you have any actual proof of your statements which go against what is incredibly likely because it is the only logical conclusion at this point, then it would be great for you to present it--but you've presented nothing of the sort. Your latest argument is wishy-washy nonsense that doesn't take any of the factors that have been presented in the story thus far into account.

I'm not going to repeat my points again, so it would be appreciated if you just read my previous post.

[fractalVacancy]

If you're referring to the Beta kids' session, then I agree that it does look to be that way, but it isn't something that's been solidified yet. There's still the problem that the Beta ecto babies were completely sent to the Alpha universe. It raises questions as to how the Beta kids came to be in the first place given that they were never sent back during their own session. If it was just a separate timeline thing, then that would be a reasonable explanation, but Rose describes it as creating a completely different reality over the old one.

Actually, Rose describes it as a separate reality caused by sending the babies back to different destination times.

show spoiler

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ROSE: When [Skaia] is asked to change everything, there is only so much it has control over.
ROSE: In fact, it has control over exactly one thing. The defense portals.
ROSE: It can decide to send important meteors to different points in time than originally planned, thus creating alternate realities.
ROSE: Offshoots of promise, rather than futility.
ROSE: And it turns out the most important meteors of all tend to be the ones delivering the young players to their planet.
ROSE: So all it has to do to change everything is tweak their destination times a bit.
ROSE: All internally-prompted changes in the post-scratch universe are decided entirely by this modest adjustment to the parameters.
ROSE: It's a very simple concept, actually.
ROSE: Yet the consequences are dramatic. It results in not only a hard reset for the session, but a partial reset for the universe too, due to the many causal entanglements between a session and its originating universe.

It's explained on this page and the one immediately following. The meteors went to both universes, B1 and B2, but arrived at different times. It's still the same set of meteors. This caused a bit of a furor when it was announced, because it confirmed a fan theory that was quite controversial with several vocal supporters, the "meteor duplication" theory, which is basically what this is.

It's basically the popular trope of people living different lives in an alternate universe, what TV Tropes calls "Richard Nixon the Used Car Salesman". Same person, different life. The same babies all arrived with the same items (cf. Jane's favorite hat, much-regifted bunnies (which Roxy and Jake presumably inherited from Rose/Mom and Jade/Grandma), and cherished Sassacre text (inherited from John/Poppop), Dirk's continued possession of Li'l Cal and the miniaturized Maplehoof in his room (presumably descended from the one sent back with Dave), and Roxy's meowcats (presumably descended from Mutie that arrived with her)).

[Sparrowsmith]

In A2, 24 trolls were created: Kids first, then guardians. This is consistent with the B1 session ectobiology.
session 2 kids are made first, then session 1 kids are made from them.

Therefore the trolls could, logically, have ectocloned the A1 ancestors. This is consistent with the patterning we've seen. However, there would then be absolutely nothing stopping them from making themselves. If one is to guess that the A1 trolls made the A2 trolls, they must explain why the process didn't finish and make the A1 trolls too.
God this terminology is annoying sometimes.

Furthermore, we know the A2 trolls made 24 trolls, and Skaia did something along the lines of asteroid duplication.
If A1 trolls also made 12 trolls, then we'd have a total of 36 trolls, OR, Skaia would simply ignore one of the sets of 12.

Alternatively, Skaia could duplicate one set, as such:
A1: A2 ancestors + A2 trolls
A2: A1 ancestors + A2 ancestors

This would mean Karkat in A1 and Karkat in A2 wouldn't need to be even remotely related to each other.
However, we have absolutely no reason to suspect this is any way shape or form.
It would be equally as consistent to claim that the A1 trolls made UU and uu, or a set of squiddles.

And, to reinforce a point, if A2 did contain the A1 ancestors, then they would have to be genetically identical to the A2 trolls anyway because, it is assumed, the B2 session trolls DID create themselves. After all, sburb players are supposed to create themselves, I don't think non-circuitous players are allowed. We haven't seen any, anyway.

[Snowmanne]

IDE: The reason that the dead Karkat and this Gamzee don't have god tier wings is because they aren't actually god tier, just wearing the clothes
the dead Feferi and Eridan did really go god tier in their timeline

[fractalVacancy]

IDE: Gamzee's potions will turn out to just be grub sauce, despite their... implications. Just because he's calmed down doesn't prevent his sense of humor from being rather... ghoulish.

(If this doesn't make sense, think about the colors of his potions in the latest update and their purported effects.)

[pikajens]

IDE: Jane will poison Jake shortly after the arrival to his planet with Nepetapotion.

The rest she'll scrap.

[cyberHeroine]

I don't think troll blood is poisonous. Absolutely disgusting, yes, but not poisonous.

[simon.clarkstone]

Some of the tablets Jane read talked about the A2 kids having to wait for the A1 ones.

IDE: they are going to have to wait a long time, enough to age Jane up to 16 (not just 15 like she is at the moment), or maybe enough that they are all adults or all dead.

IDE2: Gamzee is here to help move the B2 kids around through time to avoid the above.