IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[Desknight]

It may be a stupid crack IDE, but I'm calling some insane Alternian voodoo magick involving all those dead corpses helped Gamzee ascend to god tier.
Just saying it now!

[Vanymstorm]

I wasn't making any point as to how Aradia got there since it isn't relevant. It's exclusively about when she left. Droog talks to her directly after she finished kicking Vriska to the curb, evidenced by Aradia disappearing on the screen that Droog sees and his immediate will to school her in timeline management. We can't tell where or when she is, but that's kind of the point given that it's directly after she disappeared from Vriska's planet on her own timeline. It wouldn't make much sense for Droog to think "someone has to teach her about timeline management because of the way she is currently acting. I'll change the time on the computer first, though, and tell her what to do when it isn't relevant anymore."

It's "directly after" from his perspective, and from her perspective. That doesn't mean it's "directly after" by any external chronology. It sounds like you're assuming the viewpoint is fixed in time, so if she jumped through time the monitor would lose track of her. This would be kind of a stupid way for the terminal to work, given how time travel is part of her job. I don't think there's even a "time" on the monitor for Droog to change. It just follows her, so why shouldn't it be synched to her own "personal time", rather than locked into the "universal time"? Granted that may cause some strangeness with the other monitors, but these things have a way of working out.

It could be a part of it, but this idea is incomplete in a big way. It doesn't account for the fact that she appeared exactly where she wanted to go, and so did every single one of her doomed timeline copies. Whatever the case is, Aradia went from one place (and, presumably, a separate time) to a completely different one, and the place that she went to is where she intended on going. I don't think that it really matters how she did it, but it's clear that it's possible for her either through her own powers or her weapons.

It matters because the issue at hand was whether Gamzee has the same capability, now that he has the music boxes. It's not "incomplete", I just assumed we all understood who we were talking about. Pretty much every step of Aradia's plan had nothing to do with what she wanted, and everything to do with what others wanted of her; "others" who have some degree of influence over the big picture. So she arrived when and where they intended, and they would have been able to ensure that. Would they do the same for Gamzee? Would he accept their interference? Would he even think to try? Doubtful.

There's also the "she can navigate the Furthest Ring" argument, but that seems like the weaker of the two. Though whatever intuition enables that I'm sure didn't hurt. Really if there's problem with this theory, it's that she still showed up on the monitor, but even that's workable.

On this whole topic, I didn't see anyone suggest that since Derse asks for underlings, then BC may have had other plans and just chosen not to ask for any.

Sorry I Thought That Etcetera Etcetera.

[tangerine]

It's "directly after" from his perspective, and from her perspective. That doesn't mean it's "directly after" by any external chronology. It sounds like you're assuming the viewpoint is fixed in time, so if she jumped through time the monitor would lose track of her. This would be kind of a stupid way for the terminal to work, given how time travel is part of her job. I don't think there's even a "time" on the monitor for Droog to change. It just follows her, so why shouldn't it be synched to her own "personal time", rather than locked into the "universal time"? Granted that may cause some strangeness with the other monitors, but these things have a way of working out.

... The point that I made was based on the view port being linked to her own personal time. My point wouldn't make any sense if I didn't base it on that. I never made any indication of anything else. I went back and checked what the available commands were for the terminal before posting it, but there are no set commands; there are only commands which have been entered before the exiles reached the terminals. Due to this, I don't know whether or not there is a time skipping feature on the terminal, but I added it into my very sarcastic Droog quote in order to emphasize the ridiculousness of the idea. So, basically: yes. Your view coincides with mine. This strengthens what I wrote.

It matters because the issue at hand was whether Gamzee has the same capability, now that he has the music boxes. It's not "incomplete", I just assumed we all understood who we were talking about. Pretty much every step of Aradia's plan had nothing to do with what she wanted, and everything to do with what others wanted of her; "others" who have some degree of influence over the big picture. So she arrived when and where they intended, and they would have been able to ensure that. Would they do the same for Gamzee? Would he accept their interference? Would he even think to try? Doubtful.

The initial issue was whether Gamzee could do this, but the point that I replied to was about Aradia and if it's possible for her to travel where she likes in the first place, and if it isn't then it shouldn't be possible for Gamzee. The actual question at-hand is whether her ability to travel to different places as she travels through time is contained within the music boxes, and therefore Gamzee would be capable of doing it, or if it's because of her own abilities.



EDIT: I just remembered that there's actually more solid proof that time traveling players can travel to another location if they want to (again, assuming that they've been there before). When Dave traveled back in time to prevent John from dying, he traveled directly from some place on LOHAC, which was not his house, to his rooftop, where Dave was in the past. This seals it. So, again, the only real question is whether it's possible to do this with the music boxes or if it's a Time player's ability.

[Nokob]

I think I remember seeing somewhere that Tenebrais actually originally had it with LOHAC in LOFAF's spot, but then Andrew corrected him. I'll see if I can find it.

OK, I don't think Andrew actually said anything about it specifically, just changed it in his gate progression diagram.
For reference, here's where Tenebrais initially placed LOHAC across from LOLAR based on Jack: Ascend, and shortly after Andrew's post above he says "Ah, so the planets are in an anticlockwise arrangement? That does make things easier." So I guess that was what I was thinking of.
But the image in the recap came from before this (it's 5, as opposed to 6 and 7), so its positioning of LOHAC was speculation anyway.

I guess the point is that Andrew's gate progression diagram has LOHAC at the top, which I think someone already mentioned? Eh, whatever.

Edit: About the travelling through space as well as time:
Is there really any indication that Aradia went directly from the weird black place to Skaia towards the end of the Reckoning? Like, couldn't she have timetraveled, gone to Skaia, then timetraveled some more? Perhaps it would be easier to get to Skaia in a different time or something.
And with Dave, we don't really see where he is when he travels back, and he seems to travel a bit between the previous two pages, so he could have traveled back to his house before he went back in time.

[Sandvich King]

Look at the background here, on the right. Looks a lot like a Quest Bed:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

IDE: Gamzee has been God Tier since the middle of his session, but he hid it even more effectively than Vriska did.

[Conspicuous]

Trolls don't get quest beds, they get quest cocoons.

[cyberHeroine]

Also, there is no evidence that Vriska hid her ascension, and also no evidence that it is in any way possible to hide your ascension. Without using the power of Green Sun, anyway.

[Sandvich King]

Trolls don't get quest beds, they get quest cocoons.

Good point. But even if that particular thing isn't a quest coon, my point is that he could have God Tiered off-screen at some point in his session and somehow found a way to keep it hidden.

Also, there is no evidence that Vriska hid her ascension, and also no evidence that it is in any way possible to hide your ascension. Without using the power of Green Sun, anyway.

Even if she didn't actively hide it from the other trolls, it was a pretty well-kept secret to US until it was revealed after John's ascension. I'm just saying it's possible to hide it well enough.

[cyberHeroine]

Even if she didn't actively hide it from the other trolls, it was a pretty well-kept secret to US until it was revealed after John's ascension. I'm just saying it's possible to hide it well enough.

Just because it wasn't shown to us doesn't mean that it's possible for the trolls not to know about it.

[Vanymstorm]

... The point that I made was based on the view port being linked to her own personal time. My point wouldn't make any sense if I didn't base it on that. I never made any indication of anything else. I went back and checked what the available commands were for the terminal before posting it, but there are no set commands; there are only commands which have been entered before the exiles reached the terminals. Due to this, I don't know whether or not there is a time skipping feature on the terminal, but I added it into my very sarcastic Droog quote in order to emphasize the ridiculousness of the idea. So, basically: yes. Your view coincides with mine. This strengthens what I wrote.

Ah. Well the sarcasm came through, but you weren't that clear on what was so ridiculous; sounded like you were claiming my theory was ridiculous based on assumptions that didn't make sense.

The initial issue was whether Gamzee could do this, but the point that I replied to was about Aradia and if it's possible for her to travel where she likes in the first place, and if it isn't then it shouldn't be possible for Gamzee. The actual question at-hand is whether her ability to travel to different places as she travels through time is contained within the music boxes, and therefore Gamzee would be capable of doing it, or if it's because of her own abilities.

... Yes, and this is your response to my offering an answer to that exact question? I'm still not sure why you said it doesn't matter how she did something when the issue is if someone else can do the same.

EDIT: I just remembered that there's actually more solid proof that time traveling players can travel to another location if they want to (again, assuming that they've been there before). When Dave traveled back in time to prevent John from dying, he traveled directly from some place on LOHAC, which was not his house, to his rooftop, where Dave was in the past. This seals it. So, again, the only real question is whether it's possible to do this with the music boxes or if it's a Time player's ability.

Okay, that's a better point. It strikes me as being pretty odd that it would work that way, but there it is. Doesn't change much, since as you said we don't know if that's a function of the device, but it narrows the possibilities a bit.

[Zaverxi]

Given how damage done to the characters is healed upon ascension to God Tier, and the fact that Gamzee has scars on his face from Nepeta, he had to have gotten scratched AFTER he attained God Tier. After all, Vriska got her arm and eye back after ascending.

IDE: Gamzee attaining God Tier is what caused him to flip the fuck out, because going God Tier made him sober.

Also... it's not hard to hide being God Tier at all. UU told Dirk that the outfit is optional, and the trolls can clearly hide their wings as well. So Gamzee could've been God Tier this entire time and no one knew it. As for hiding ascending, why would it be impossible to hide it? Gamzee's got Aradia's music boxes. He could've gone off to his quest bed and died on it whenever he wanted.

I also saw a theory on tumblr. Gamzee took all the bodies of the dead trolls through time and put them on their quest cocoons before they were destroyed by Jack, that's why no one could find Gamzee or the bodies on their journey through space. I'd like to support this theory because I want the dead trolls back! And I want to see their God Tiers.

[Sandvich King]

Just because it wasn't shown to us doesn't mean that it's possible for the trolls not to know about it.

I never said the other trolls didn't know about Vriska. Vriska wasn't even my main point!

It was never said that a God Tier player couldn't hide it effectively if they wanted to. This is a crack idea. All I'm doing is throwing out a possible explanation for why Gamzee is in a god-hood even though we've never seen him in it before.

[simon.clarkstone]

Other possible GT Gamzee origins that come to mind:

• alternate version nicked from dream-bubble no wait wrong eyes
• used dream-bubble quest bed
• is from an alternate time-line and travelled back via a meteor the same way that that one Aradia did
• actually normal gamzee cosplaying in clothes copied from a dead GT one

[D-vid]

Given how damage done to the characters is healed upon ascension to God Tier, and the fact that Gamzee has scars on his face from Nepeta, he had to have gotten scratched AFTER he attained God Tier. After all, Vriska got her arm and eye back after ascending.

That... that is an excellent point actually.

[Jub3r7]

Is it possible that UU and uu are the same people? (In a Jekyll/Hyde manner.)

[cyberHeroine]

Vriska 's dreamself didn't lose her eye and arm. Terezi's dreamself was blinded. I would imagine that injuries are only healed if the player wants them healed. On the other hand, there does seem to be a lot of evidence suggesting that Gamzee god-tiered at some point during the game, and it would explain why he did more damage in one attack than Vriska, who threatened a First Guardian.

[tangerine]

Given how damage done to the characters is healed upon ascension to God Tier, and the fact that Gamzee has scars on his face from Nepeta, he had to have gotten scratched AFTER he attained God Tier. After all, Vriska got her arm and eye back after ascending.

It's definitely possible for him to have achieved God Tier status after receiving the scars.

Characters aren't "healed" upon ascension to God Tier. Characters that become God Tier through the first method, which involves using the Dream body as the new permanent body, only change bodies and gain God Tier abilities. Dream selves are a reflection of how a character wishes him or herself to be. Vriska already had both arms and both eyes as her dream self before going God Tier: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005029. This is also why Tavros has functioning legs as his Dream self and why Terezi is still blind, even though there is no physical reason for her Dream self to be blind.

If Gamzee went God Tier by using this method, there's no way of telling whether or not he'd rather keep his scars as a reminder. It's more likely, however, that he achieved God Tier status via the second known method instead.

The second method involves a character dying on his or her quest bed in Prospit or Derse. (It's unknown as of yet whether this is possible within dream bubbles.) This method uses the same body rather than switching to another body, and therefore there would be no removal of physical traits.

[Zaverxi]

Vriska 's dreamself didn't lose her eye and arm. Terezi's dreamself was blinded. I would imagine that injuries are only healed if the player wants them healed. On the other hand, there does seem to be a lot of evidence suggesting that Gamzee god-tiered at some point during the game, and it would explain why he did more damage in one attack than Vriska, who threatened a First Guardian.

Actually Terezi's dreamself wasn't blinded, she just chose not to be able to see while dreaming because it made her feel closer to her lusus. Staring at Skaia wouldn't blind anyone, or all the Prospit dreamers would be blind as well since Skaia is where the vision clouds come from.

[Sparrowsmith]

It's definitely possible for him to have achieved God Tier status after receiving the scars.

Characters aren't "healed" upon ascension to God Tier. Characters that become God Tier through the first method, which involves using the Dream body as the new permanent body, only change bodies and gain God Tier abilities. Dream selves are a reflection of how a character wishes him or herself to be. Vriska already had both arms and both eyes as her dream self before going God Tier: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005029. This is also why Tavros has functioning legs as his Dream self and why Terezi is still blind, even though there is no physical reason for her Dream self to be blind.

If Gamzee went God Tier by using this method, there's no way of telling whether or not he'd rather keep his scars as a reminder. It's more likely, however, that he achieved God Tier status via the second known method instead.

The second method involves a character dying on his or her quest bed in Prospit or Derse. (It's unknown as of yet whether this is possible within dream bubbles.) This method uses the same body rather than switching to another body, and therefore there would be no removal of physical traits.

No this method, from what we've seen, just uses the dream selves without the real selves. In fact, the real selves die for real on a normal quest bed.
Real self -> Dream self -> God Tier.
We have never seen an example sans the middle step.

Also, a necessary step of going god tier is death and revival. This is why Aradia is not burned by the green flames, and Dave and Rose are not burned by the green sun. They recovered the wounds they got.
Gamzee was god tier when Nepeta attacked him, if he is god tier at all.

[Anavirable]

IDE: Gamzee isn't traveling from the future; he's traveling from the past when he was on the asteroid, which is why nobody can find him on the asteroid. Knowing how time shenanigans work, he might have traveled multiple times--once to the past or something to reach God Tier--, and he started traveling all over the place so that he doesn't have to face his friends after murderstuck. Time loops probably don't have to be closed because time is wonky in the furthest ring.

I like this idea.
And I love that Gamzee's back! He still looks stoned, so that's good. For the God Tier thing, it is possible that he ascended during the year that we didn't see him. (And he could have chosen to kept his scars as some kind of punishment thing?) I'm not sure how or why he would hide it, though. Maybe he's ashamed of his title? I mean, that was probably a contributing factor to the murders.
I really hope we get to find out more about what he's been doing the past year, and how he reached God Tier. Assuming he still had to die to reach it, what killed him? Did Kanaya find him? Did he off himself? This is going to lead to so much awesome fan fiction.
...I think I'm getting ahead of myself. Anyway, I just really hope this isn't some "alternate timeline" Gamzee, because I really want to see more of him again. I know a lot of people hate him, but he's just so awesome to me.
Side note: Seeing him stoned in his God Tier outfit is pretty hilarious. Looking at the God Tiers wiki page, http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/God_Tier, it's weird seeing his stupid smile and outfit with the caption "Gamzee Makara ascended as the Bard of Rage." When he's stoned, he's a pretty awful God of Rage.

[cyberHeroine]

Actually Terezi's dreamself wasn't blinded, she just chose not to be able to see while dreaming because it made her feel closer to her lusus. Staring at Skaia wouldn't blind anyone, or all the Prospit dreamers would be blind as well since Skaia is where the vision clouds come from.

I never said Terezi's dreamself was blinded by Skaia. I agree that would make no sense. She was however blinded by the same cause as her realself. That's what not being able to see means.
And I know it was a choice, as well. You are completely missing the point, here.

[tangerine]

No this method, from what we've seen, just uses the dream selves without the real selves. In fact, the real selves die for real on a normal quest bed.
Real self -> Dream self -> God Tier.
We have never seen an example sans the middle step.

We don't know whether a dream self is required or not, all that we know for certain is that dying on that quest bed leads to a God Tier status.

Also, a necessary step of going god tier is death and revival. This is why Aradia is not burned by the green flames, and Dave and Rose are not burned by the green sun. They recovered the wounds they got.
Gamzee was god tier when Nepeta attacked him, if he is god tier at all.

God Tiers can heal existing wounds because they pose immediate threats or damage. That's why Aradia, Dave and Rose aren't burned. If there's nothing to heal because it's already been healed then there shouldn't be any change in that feature. You can't heal something that doesn't require healing. It's not on the same level, but having his scars removed would be analogous to Vriska suddenly growing an arm which would meld with the robot arm if she had ascended that way.

This is also why it's unlikely that Gamzee was God Tier when he was injured, because if he was God Tier at that time then his wounds would've healed completely instead of staying for a while and then formed into scars. If that wasn't the case then Dave and Rose would still be alive, but they'd have burn scars all over their bodies.

[linkman0596]

We don't know whether a dream self is required or not, all that we know for certain is that dying on that quest bed leads to a God Tier status.



God Tiers can heal existing wounds because they pose immediate threats or damage. That's why Aradia, Dave and Rose aren't burned. If there's nothing to heal because it's already been healed then there shouldn't be any change in that feature. You can't heal something that doesn't require healing. It's not on the same level, but having his scars removed would be analogous to Vriska suddenly growing an arm which would meld with the robot arm if she had ascended that way.

This is also why it's unlikely that Gamzee was God Tier when he was injured, because if he was God Tier at that time then his wounds would've healed completely instead of staying for a while and then formed into scars. If that wasn't the case then Dave and Rose would still be alive, but they'd have burn scars all over their bodies.

except neptia just watched him murder equius, any injuries, fatal or otherwise, neptia gave him would be considered just, and might not be healed by godhood......though, i'm actually of the opinion that he wasn't "just hiding it." partially because i think that'd just be lame storytelling on hussie's part, and because it'd just be more interesting to find out there's another method of reaching god tier, possibly related to all of gamzee's troll murdering and bard of rage-ness

[Velmen]

We don't know whether a dream self is required or not, all that we know for certain is that dying on that quest bed leads to a God Tier status.

Just going off this to state:

METHOD 1
Dying on a Quest Bed utilizes both the dreamself and the realself (and the player dreamself transports to the Battlefield Bed, where the realself consciousness is transferred to the ascended dreamself, now a God Tier).

METHOD 2
Dying on a Quest Crypt utilizes either the realself or the dreamself, whichever life remains available to the player (either works, and the player is just wherever the Quest Crypt was, instead of being on the Battlefield).

And because this will most likely come up, my proof for METHOD 2:

It turns out, the other way involves another set of quest beds in the core of the moons of Prospit and Derse. Reaching god tier involves using the only life you have left, and dying on that quest bed. Then, rather than waking up as a god tier on the Battlefield, the dead body simply resurrects automatically, transforming then and there. This is the basic outline of the process, with some caveats from examples we’ve observed.

Also, Gamzee pretty much had to have ascended before their Black King fight, if anyone was still contesting the when of the matter, because Noir. And this would explain quite a bit about his surprising attack on the BK, with it not just being his bloodlines crazy strength.

[Sparrowsmith]

If that wasn't the case then Dave and Rose would still be alive, but they'd have burn scars all over their bodies.

I have... No words... For this thing... That sense does not make.

They don't have scars, because their bodies recovered.
Gamzee has scars because the wound healed, correct, but it would go away if he god tiered. If Vriska's dreamself had a robotic arm, then it would have exploded Aradia style (I imagine). I'm really not going to go into this, because somehow, and don't ask me how, we're using the exact same evidence to back up contradicting viewpoints, and I'm not going to spend several posts going in circles.

As I said, it's possible Gamzee never went god tier at all, it's even possible that isn't Gamzee, but it doesn't seem possible for Gamzee to go god tier after Nepetattack.