IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[Ktalaki]

They do not have different alpha timelines; they are intertwined through paradox space. The letter from Jake to Jade is one of the most glaring example. They aren't different universes, they are simply both different timelines of the same instance. The Scratch changed the coordinates of the meteors before they even landed on Earth, condemning B1 as a doomed timeline, where the meteors actually landed.

Only alpha timelines of universes can communicate with other universes. We know this from the lack of trolls keeping in contact with Davesprite's future. And from when Vriska told John that they can only communicate alpha-timeline to alpha-timeline.

So we have B1, which is in contact with A2. (kids and trolls)
And now we have B2, which is in contact with some universe that isn't B2. (kids and UU/uu)

B1 has an alpha timeline. B2 also has an alpha timeline. They are separate timelines, because they are separate universal instances. If you want to say they're all the "same" alpha timeline, you may as well throw out the concept of "alpha timeline" altogether, because the alpha timelines of every universal instance are "intertwined through paradox space".
If you want to keep using these words and have them mean anything, you have to concede on this point.

[Doom Zero]

Ide/Theory: To be the reverse of the Beta kids, all the Alpha kids except Jane (If they all get in the medium) go god tier early on, with Jane only doing it in the EOA6/7.

Please refer to the "Alpha kids" as the B2 kids. I made a post on the same page as your post about why.

Probably been said before in another thread, but... I don't see it here.

IDE/Theory: Since it seems the meteor duplication is a normal part of the Scratch, LE's calling card "Subtle Glitch" is being able to calculate Pi to a final digit, as Auto-Responder has done.

It's not meteor duplication, it's timeline divergence. The meteors aren't physically duplicated, there is only one meteor. It goes into one portal and exits through another in the B1 timeline. Then, the B1 session is erased and the meteors are rerouted to land in a different place, thus changing history.

If they were duplicated in any physical sense at all, the B2 timeline would not occur. It only exists because the change in arrival times changed the timeline so greatly.

[Crispiness]

It's not meteor duplication, it's timeline divergence. The meteors aren't physically duplicated, there is only one meteor. It goes into one portal and exits through another in the B1 timeline. Then, the B1 session is erased and the meteors are rerouted to land in a different place, thus changing history.

If they were duplicated in any physical sense at all, the B2 timeline would not occur. It only exists because the change in arrival times changed the timeline so greatly.

You really don't want meteor duplication to win, though you know it already has.

[Ktalaki]

Technically they were duplicated, but only in the sense that everything in the B2 timeline was duplicated from everything in the B1 timeline at the point of divergence, which includes all outstanding time-travels yet to resolve. Actually, I have a nice diagram of how that works, not made for Homestuck, but still perfectly applicable to this situation:

[Nero11]

The only difference with the pre-existing theory is the time-line stuff. Wich is just an explanation for the same concept.

[ardentApathy]

You really don't want meteor duplication to win, though you know it already has.

Just do what I did, and call it meteor split. Bam, everyone's happy.

EDIT: Like, seriously guys. Can we just call it meteor split from now on? It's shorter, simpler, and easier to understand than "meteor duplication".

[Doom Zero]

Technically they were duplicated, but only in the sense that everything in the B2 timeline was duplicated from everything in the B1 timeline at the point of divergence, which includes all outstanding time-travels yet to resolve. Actually, I have a nice diagram of how that works, not made for Homestuck, but still perfectly applicable to this situation:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

That's not how that would work.
That is so majorly not how it would work.
I'm not commenting on the meteor duplication at all, just that time travel thing? That time travel thing is so very incorrect.
If the dude travels back to Y500, then he doesn't create a new timeline until he actually changes something. And since the timeline is changed, the changed timeline is the dominant one because it required outside input to facilitate gfasfgdfhgdsfhdsraeyesrsdf
and then I was confused.

But honestly no that is really flawed. I can't really talk words rightly for the moment, but I assure you that it's not correct. I can't explain it, but I know somebody could.

[Ktalaki]

That's not how that would work.
That is so majorly not how it would work.
I'm not commenting on the meteor duplication at all, just that time travel thing? That time travel thing is so very incorrect.
If the dude travels back to Y500, then he doesn't create a new timeline until he actually changes something. And since the timeline is changed, the changed timeline is the dominant one because it required outside input to facilitate gfasfgdfhgdsfhdsraeyesrsdf
and then I was confused.

But honestly no that is really flawed. I can't really talk words rightly for the moment, but I assure you that it's not correct. I can't explain it, but I know somebody could.

you uhh
saw the part where I said I didn't make that diagram for Homestuck, right?
as in
it uses completely different time travel mechanics which are entirely internally consistent?
instead of what Homestuck uses?

I just want to be sure you caught that little tidbit.
Especially since it was bolded.

[Tren]

This page makes me think that Rose can't use colons.

[Doom Zero]

you uhh
saw the part where I said I didn't make that diagram for Homestuck, right?
as in
it uses completely different time travel mechanics which are entirely internally consistent?
instead of what Homestuck uses?

I just want to be sure you caught that little tidbit.
Especially since it was bolded.

I saw that. I also saw the part immediately after that which says "perfectly applicable to this situation." So I'm sorry for assuming that the diagram was perfectly applicable to this situation, when it wasn't. It would've been a bit clearer if you had also not said, in the image, "This is what meteor duplication essentially is." Perhaps you could've circled the specific portion of the image that was relevant, instead of saying that the whole thing was "perfectly applicable"

You know you don't have to be so aggressive in clarifying that. Come on bro, let's be respectful here. I'm not talking to you like you're a moron, so give me the same courtesy, okay?
Talking to you in a less-than-polite manner is not the same as not talking to you like a moron.

[Ktalaki]

Apologies if I came off as rude; that's sort of just how I always speak :/

Anyway, the only really relevant part is the forwardsways time travel, where the hypothetical time traveler gets "duplicated" across timelines. That is basically how I see what happened with the B1 session meteors going into B1 and B2.

[Doom Zero]

Apologies if I came off as rude; that's sort of just how I always speak :/

Anyway, the only really relevant part is the forwardsways time travel, where the hypothetical time traveler gets "duplicated" across timelines. That is basically how I see what happened with the B1 session meteors going into B1 and B2.

That's a lot easier to respond to, thanks.

I can give you a better example to showcase that particular type of duplication. The Condesce. She was in the B universe before any meteors arrived. The batterwitch is therefore in both timelines. For some reason or another, though, she disappeared from the B1 at an unknown point in time. She interacted directly with B1 Jane, though, so we know it has nothing to do with the B1 timeline being any less alpha than B2.

I can't say that the meteors actually experienced that, though. It seems almost the opposite of that. Instead of being duplicated, they [insert something that I've already said many times before here]
I'm tired of restating my theories.

[unbeliever536]

What if the requirement for non-doomedness is not alphaness but uniqueness? As in, there can only be one John, Rose, Jade, Dave, etc alive in a timeline. Thus, the guardians all have to die because the B1 and B2 timelines are going to combine* in the B2 Incipisphere. Davesprite, then, survived so long not because becoming a sprite got rid of the "doomed" tag, but because it changed his ID attribute from "Dave" to "Davesprite", as symbolized by his color change.

*This is how I read the whole universe/timeline thing: Doom Zero is right, that is exactly how meteor duplication works (at least in my mind). The uniqueness Rose mentioned comes from the fact that the timelines of the two scratched universes, split in 1900 (1st ectobaby arrival), are going to recombine in a sense in the B2 Incipisphere, with a B1 Bilious Slick entering a B2 Skaia to become a new universe.

[simon.clarkstone]

It really depends on what one means by "duplication". John was only created once, and the B1 version of him is still around and could go and see the B2 version and there would be two adjacent Johns, neither of whom is in the future version of the other. It also depends on whether one considers destroyed timelines to "continue existing", since they are still in somone's past. Each ecto-baby has two futures which will diverge at a particular point in its story. Maybe "duplication" is the right terminology for that, though "forking" would be better.

Do we have an established definition of Doomed Timeline?
I would like to put forth one right now.

Doom = An undesirable outcome.
Alpha Timeline = the timeline which follows the series of events predicted and foretold in Paradox Space.
Doomed Timeline = a timeline which deviates from a series of events predicted and foretold in Paradox Space.

I disagree with this definition. Things like the honk-filled ~ATH book came from doomed timelines, but were still essential to the events that occurred. The doomed timelines are those that get cut short in the course of predicted events, just so they can have some small but important influence on the alpha.

[reignonyourparade]

There is no meteor duplication: the actually duplication is in ESCAPING THE SCRATCH. The meteors don't duplicate any more than the entire earth does, or John F Kennedy does, or the Orion Nebula does.

EDIT: a doomed timeline is not an "undesirable outcome" it's "any timeline which negates its own existence." In that respect: any timeline which did not result in the creation of the green sun was doomed.

[NeoPhantom]

First some facts:

Trolls universe

Instance 1 (T1)
Failed to create new universe
Reason: Unknown (Predestination due to not being created in this session)
Solution: Scratch

------------------

Instance 2 (T2)
Success in creating new universe
Failed to enter new universe
Reason: interference from within created universe (BecNoir)
Solution: Troll inhabitants of new universe, then help them enter Instance 2 of said universe




Human´s universe

Instance 1 (H1)
Failed to create new universe
Reason: session was dull, never to create a universe due to accelerated events
Solution: Scratch and escape

------------------

Instance 2 (H2)
Failed to create new universe ON IT´S OWN
Reason: Session was void due to no prototypings and unevolved battlefield
Solution: Potentially, use the battlefield of another session to create a universe.

[for those with problems understanding words, potentially means possible and probable, but not definite]



Now the theories:

Theory 1:
The reason why Lord English was destined to appear in the troll´s session and not the humans is because the trollian universe NEEDED to scratch in order for it to make sense, since the players were born in the post-scratch universe. THIS glitch causes LE´s arrival.

The human´s universe was the other way around. The humans´did not require to Scratch in order for it to make sense, since they were born in their own session (at least it makes sense from a point of creation). The humans´ post-Scratch were the ones that required the scratch to happen in order to exist.

Therefore LE is not summoned in this universe because his sign (the pre-scratch instance players requiring the post-scratch instance to exist) is not present in the kid´s universe.


Theory 2:

The number of prototypings have gone down quite a bit during the transession of the universal instances: T2 prototyped pre-entry 12 times, H1 prototyped pre-entry 5 times, H2 prototyped pre-entry 0 times.

If we follow this line of thought, maybe the T1 saw the mistake that H2 committed in not prototyping anything and decided not to repeat the mistake by prototyping as much as possible. My theory is that the T1 players prototyped 24 times pre-entry, making the session even more unwinnable than the H1 session! This unwinnability forced them to scratch their session.

On a side note, a 24 pre-entry prototyped session is NO laughing matter...


Theory 3:

The two instances of each universe (pre and post-Scratch) are actually the two eyes of Billious Slick. Therefore, neither instance is doomed because they are both part of BS.

A universe without two instances will result in a mutated Billious Slick with only one eye. When the third Billious Slick is created by the 8 humans, they will create this frog because there will be no further need for a scratch, as the last BS will be the battleground for the final battle.

[Doom Zero]

I disagree with this definition. Things like the honk-filled ~ATH book came from doomed timelines, but were still essential to the events that occurred. The doomed timelines are those that get cut short in the course of predicted events, just so they can have some small but important influence on the alpha.

This is why we need an official definition. Your point is significant, but as long as we disagree on definitions we could argue about this forever.

For instance, I could say that the ~ATH timeline is covered by my definition because it was just another naturally doomed timeline that was fixed by the time player of that session. The book is used in the foretold creation of Doc Scratch but there's no evidence that Gamzee going crazy early was predicted by anything or anyone. The book exists but it isn't necessary for it to have originated in the alpha timeline.
I don't know at this point, I'm just exhausted.

[NeoPhantom]

Question:

Why do people keep saying the humans come from a doomed ¨timeline¨?

When Rose begins explaining the process she uses the term (and I quote) ¨thus creating alternate realities.¨
The humans created an alternate reality not an alternate timeline.

[Circleo]

IDE: LE is a good guy who just wants to get rid of some evil squids for the subjectively greater good.

[cyberHeroine]

There is no meteor duplication: the actually duplication is in ESCAPING THE SCRATCH. The meteors don't duplicate any more than the entire earth does, or John F Kennedy does, or the Orion Nebula does.

In essence, the entire universe was duplicated, yes. Most of the B1 session was not, except for those particular meteors, which is the point that is being made here.

[Vanymstorm]

There is no meteor duplication: the actually duplication is in ESCAPING THE SCRATCH. The meteors don't duplicate any more than the entire earth does, or John F Kennedy does, or the Orion Nebula does.

Sounds like you're saying that there's only "two versions" of each person if the pre-scratch one "still exists". That's... "wrong" is a drastic understatement in this case; it doesn't even make sense that you would think that. The rest of the statement is aggressively petty nitpicking of terminology. Of course everything else has been "duplicated"; that's why there's two universes. That doesn't mean the fact that a single cause has had identical effects in two separate timelines isn't significant enough to draw attention to.

EDIT: a doomed timeline is not an "undesirable outcome" it's "any timeline which negates its own existence." In that respect: any timeline which did not result in the creation of the green sun was doomed.

So any timeline containing a paradox? But... Anything that returns to the alpha timeline is equally paradoxical. Either way, you've got an effect in one timeline coming from a cause in another. One timeline where the kids exist, but John never created them; one timeline where "bad future" Dave exists, but the events that led to him traveling back never happened.

[LordHyper]

Ridiculous IDE: A third party is actually the one trying to assassinate Jane. Whoever's trying to do so is worried that she'll end up becoming the next Betty Crocker. Meanwhile, the Batterwitch herself has no idea this is happening and is trying to kill off the dreamselves so that Jane would have only one life. You know. Just in case the propaganda brainwashing didn't work on her and she'll end up becoming a good Betty Crocker that must be destroyed.

Ridiculous and Silly IDE: Gamzee invented Starbucks.

[linkzeldi]

I bring the gift of randomly found fanart to this humble thread.



As for my theory on the whole meteor duplication thing, I'm going to give the idea in my head after I have read through the backlog of theory after theory, all pretty well done.

Basically I believe the Meteor Duplication, in the same vein as everything else in Paradox space, is a Paradox unto itself. Skaia knew that the session would be scratched beforehand because of pre-destination and all that jazz, so what it did to create a situation in which the heroes would be created and delivered in both universes was engineer a paradox with its portals. Basically the Portals translated to the Alpha Universe, and the Beta Universe in the exact same instant. They were not duplicated, or erased, or rewritten in any fashion. Just a paradox, two things happening in the space of a time window which should allow only one thing to occur. The duplication is just something we see as a side effect to linear time perspective.

I might be completely off, but that is how I see it for the moment.

[psychoticArctolatry]

IDE: When Roxy dies, it won't say "DEAD." it will clearly say "WASTED." and there will be some form of typo(maybe) and a martini glass nearby.

[LordHyper]

^ I can totally see the Clubs Deuce version of CD being the final boss. After all, we never did see what happened to him before Spades Slick jumped to the universe where he's dead. Who knows. Maybe he threw himself into the Green Sun and made himself the all powerful god up 52 Pick-Up.