IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

[unbeliever536]

A version of CD got outsmarted by a stuffed rabbit. He is doing very well for himself, demonstrating a great deal more deviousness than most people expected.

[ardentApathy]

http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread...=1#post6058165

The only part of theory that's really inaccurate at this point is the idea that something other than switching the meteors caused the split timeline, and the meteors going to exactly the same points in time, just with different babies. Otherwise, this is pretty much how Rose explained it, only mine was much more long-winded. Meh.

[Aabcehmu]

An IDE that I thought of with one my friends, is that UU and uu are both from B2 and that they know so much because of their access to exile terminals.

[Doom Zero]

Okay so a very simple and easy way to refer to universes is the system in which we assign two digit names to the universes and the sessions spawned from them.

A1 is the original trolls' universe
A2 is Karkat's universe
B1 is John's universe
B2 is Jane's universe.

That's all well and good, but I think that it might be inaccurate right now.
See, the prevalent "meteor duplication theory" has perhaps biased some people into thinking that the meteors really are duplicated. That's simply not true. I'll explain my thoughts while also proposing a new way to use the naming system described above.

Originally, the letters described universes that spawned from previous successful sessions. Starting with A of course, because we don't know anything about preceding sessions The A universes came first, the B universes were created from the successful A universe. Then, the numbers described which instance of the universe it was. B1 was the first universe from the successful A2, B2 was the second instance of the universe created by A2.
That was all well and good, it let you describe them in much simpler terms. No more "Alpha Universe/Post-Scratch Universe/Jane's Universe" just B2.
But I think this recent update requires us to rethink it a little.
Instead of the letters describing the spawn of successful universes... The letters should describe each individual universe, and the numbers should describe INDIVIDUAL TIMELINES spawning from that universe.
Instead of B1 and B2 referring to universes, they refer to one singular universe (The B Universe) and the two timelines (1st and 2nd) that came from it.

Why do I suggest this, you might ask? Why does this argue against the the meteor duplication theory? Swell questions there ol chap I'm not british.
Well, here's how I would describe the effects of a scratch, using those terms.

The scratch releases a massive amount of energy, which skaia then uses for two purposes. The first purpose is to change the destination times of the meteors. The second, and perhaps most costly use of that energy is to wipe the incipisphere clean. The meteors arrive at different times on Earth, instead of where they originally landed. That is the extent to which Skaia changes the perimeters of the new session.
This means that the kids who played the first Sburb now grow old and aren't around when the game gets released, so they do not play Sburb at all. Paradox Space eats paradoxes for breakfast. It can support kids with no originating timeline. So, John and the gang in this new timeline, in the B2 timeline, don't play Sburb. They shouldn't exist but they do.

So, what does this mean? It means very simply that each meteor lands in only one place. They don't duplicate or anything, they simply land in a different place in this timeline. History is rewritten so that B1 does not happen, and instead B2 plays out.

If B1 referred to a universe, we really couldn't say "B1 does not happen". But, say it refers to a timeline branch in a universe, and then it's a simple statement.

TL;DR: B1 and B2 are two divergent timelines from the B Universe, not their own universes.

[Sir Screwloose]

Yyyeah, the Timeline versus Universe thing once again rears its ugly head. This time though, the confusion is perfectly justified @_@

[Stormspirit]

Yyyeah, the Timeline versus Universe thing once again rears its ugly head. This time though, the confusion is perfectly justified @_@

I don't see how it's confusing. The universes are A and B. A1 is the timeline in which the trolls scratched, A2 is the timeline that was successful. They created the B universe. B1 is the timeline in which the Kids were forced to scratch, B2 the current timeline. It's easy.

[Sir Screwloose]

What I mean is that it's always previously been referred two as four separate yet connected universes.
What worries me is what this means for the incoming humans, since they'd be coming from a non-alpha timeline, which usually marks them for doom.

[Ktalaki]

There's a reason they're referred to as "universal instances" and not just "different timelines"

(That reason is because it's more than just them being "different timelines". The fact that both pre-scratch and post-scratch universal instances have different alpha timelines should give it away.)

[Stormspirit]

There's a reason they're referred to as "universal instances" and not just "different timelines"

(That reason is because it's more than just them being "different timelines". The fact that both pre-scratch and post-scratch universal instances have different alpha timelines should give it away.)

They do not have different alpha timelines; they are intertwined through paradox space. The letter from Jake to Jade is one of the most glaring example. They aren't different universes, they are simply both different timelines of the same instance. The Scratch changed the coordinates of the meteors before they even landed on Earth, condemning B1 as a doomed timeline, where the meteors actually landed.

[Sir Screwloose]

Wwwait a second, they can't just be different timelines in the same universe - doomed timelines get cut off from communication with other timelines/universes as soon as they split off, yet Jade and Jake kept up a regular correspondence.

[tanquerayChampion]

Hussie stated that there's only one LE and that he always looks the same. Thus, either all Scratches have been co-opted by Lord English to be part of his calling card, or he has multiple calling cards, or LE is 100% a red herring.

I've always thought that these weren't necessarily related. LE can enter a universe without needing it to be scratched; he's just doing so this time because maybe it's easier for him to accomplish his goals in a void session. Similarly, a universe can be scratched without LE entering it. See also: A1. Through Doc Scratch, LE influences this universe--but he never actually enters it.

And we also have to take into account that our reference pool for S____b sessions is extremely small. It's possible that scratches happen all the time without LE being involved whatsoever--we just haven't seen them because the only sessions we've witnessed have involved LE messing with stuff.

[Nimz]

I think your assessment is pretty spot on, Doom Zero. I would say that pragmatically we essentially have a meteor duplication, but technically it's timeline divergence. The parallel with doomed Dave going back to become Davesprite is rather apt. He didn't create a new universe when he did that, but a whole new universe of possibilities opened up. Similarly, the temporal energy released by the Scratch doesn't create a new universe, but even more literally creates a new universe of possibilities. I would say this update is a pragmatic win for the meteor duplication theory, but a technical win for the no-duplication theory. The meteors that carried the children literally do go to two different places, but in separate timelines rather than actual separate universes.

[Triangle Man]

So basically, all that changed in this scratch session, aside from Lord English and the Empresses' interference, was the times at which the meteors were sent back?

...It's really simple, and yet it explains quite a bit in the process, perhaps (different personalities results in drastic changes to the timeline?). I guess Oakham's Razor wins again.

[ponce]

I think your assessment is pretty spot on, Doom Zero. I would say that pragmatically we essentially have a meteor duplication, but technically it's timeline divergence. The parallel with doomed Dave going back to become Davesprite is rather apt. He didn't create a new universe when he did that, but a whole new universe of possibilities opened up. Similarly, the temporal energy released by the Scratch doesn't create a new universe, but even more literally creates a new universe of possibilities. I would say this update is a pragmatic win for the meteor duplication theory, but a technical win for the no-duplication theory. The meteors that carried the children literally do go to two different places, but in separate timelines rather than actual separate universes.

This of course brings up the bigger problem, and that is of the frog. None of the main characters know about the Red Miles, yet they are due to show up right around Roxy and Dirk's point on the timeline. Since we now can reasonably assume they share a single frog, that means they didn't stop being a thing that happened.

[Doom Zero]

They do not have different alpha timelines; they are intertwined through paradox space. The letter from Jake to Jade is one of the most glaring example. They aren't different universes, they are simply both different timelines of the same instance. The Scratch changed the coordinates of the meteors before they even landed on Earth, condemning B1 as a doomed timeline, where the meteors actually landed.

Do we have an established definition of Doomed Timeline?
I would like to put forth one right now.

Doom = An undesirable outcome.
Alpha Timeline = The timeline which accounts for every event and decision predicted and foretold by Paradox Space.
Doomed Timeline = Any timeline which deviates from the expected plan of Paradox Space to any extent.

Now... consider the canonical doomed timelines which we've seen. They all deviate from the alpha timeline, and produce undesirable outcomes for their inhabitants. If they fall off the alpha naturally, they will end with a time player going back and correcting the mistake. If they fall off the alpha through a decision, an alternate timeline in which they chose correctly becomes the alpha.

What makes B1 a doomed timeline? Everything proceeded as expected. Paradox Space even planted a book which foreshadowed the crossing of the yellow yard. B1 was scratched, it was reset through a mechanical process. It's not a doomed timeline, it's a scratched timeline. They can both be alpha timelines, because they both follow their predestined paths. A scratched timeline does not necessarily have to be a doomed timeline. A null session is not a session in a doomed timeline, it's simply a barren session. If a null session is considered part of a doomed timeline, then doesn't that mean that a void session must also occur within a doomed timeline.

edit: We don't need a canon definition of doomed timeline. While it would be VERY HELPFUL, and Hussie if you're reading this I would REALLY appreciate a definition... We don't need it for these theories. At the moment it's a classification issue, I find. We're confused about what to call the timelines. Doomed or not? The struggle comes from no agreement on what defines a doomed timeline.
So, if you agree with my definition at the top of this post, back me up. Put your word in. If we all use separate definitions, we'll only end up arguing unnecessarily. While the correct definition is always a good thing, we don't need it to be correct in order to agree on some things.

[linkman0596]

IDE: lord english's ultimate goal!

last time we saw lord english, he had gotten ahold of the black king's septre, and the condense has overthrown the black queen and then had CD take out the black king and white king. on top of that, all this is happening in a void session, what this means is the battle with be insanely easy once the alpha kids get in there, but fruitless. that is, until the beta kids get there, bringing a fully evolved battlefield, but without the fully evolved enemies. this is what lord english is after, in every universe he's in he enters via it's destruction, meaning that as powerful as he is he can't deviate it's fate from one that results in it's destruction. so what's he do? he organizes this whole thing so that he can steal the new universe for himself, he already has the black septre, which seems to be the intended means of entry and probably gives the user sburb powers in the new world (AKA building with grist and whatnot) i mean, if you're an all powerful guy who plays with the fate of entire universes like this, but it all ends the same, you'd probably want your own universe to do with as you wish.

[Doom Zero]

IDE: lord english's ultimate goal!

last time we saw lord english, he had gotten ahold of the black king's septre, and the condense has overthrown the black queen and then had CD take out the black king and white king. on top of that, all this is happening in a void session, what this means is the battle with be insanely easy once the alpha kids get in there, but fruitless. that is, until the beta kids get there, bringing a fully evolved battlefield, but without the fully evolved enemies. this is what lord english is after, in every universe he's in he enters via it's destruction, meaning that as powerful as he is he can't deviate it's fate from one that results in it's destruction. so what's he do? he organizes this whole thing so that he can steal the new universe for himself, he already has the black septre, which seems to be the intended means of entry and probably gives the user sburb powers in the new world (AKA building with grist and whatnot) i mean, if you're an all powerful guy who plays with the fate of entire universes like this, but it all ends the same, you'd probably want your own universe to do with as you wish.

That's not the black king's sceptre.
That's a gold rod with a glowy power orb on top of it. We've seen the Black King's Sceptre, and it's most certainly black with Skaia on the top.

Also, I guess it's possible that he wants his own universe? I don't know. I think he's perfectly content with eating universes.
And I think it's been mentioned previously that an unknown demon is killing all of the horrorterrors in Paradox Space. Most people are betting that it's Lord English doing that. I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty occupied if I tried to kill all of the horrorterrors in an infinite expanse of ever-changing space.

[Tenebrais]

Personally I always understood the Alpha Timeline to be the 'final iteration' of a timeline after any time travellers have done all the time travelling they're going to. Any other timeline is doomed by the fact that a time traveller will go back and change something, and when they do, that timeline ceases to exist.

[Doom Zero]

Personally I always understood the Alpha Timeline to be the 'final iteration' of a timeline after any time travellers have done all the time travelling they're going to. Any other timeline is doomed by the fact that a time traveller will go back and change something, and when they do, that timeline ceases to exist.

I think that would agree with other people's definitions.

The thing that concerns me about what constitutes a doomed timeline is the inherent doomed nature of its inhabitants.
People that escape the scratch of B1 shouldn't be doomed. That doesn't seem right to me.
Perhaps being doomed is more to do with the method of escaping the timeline than it is really what type of timeline they come from?

[Razumihin]

Alright, I haven't looked through that many theory threads before, so some of these may be duplicates.

When CD detonated Dad's supply of Barbasol, Bilious Slick wasn't killed by the Forge. Jade will enter the Alpha session and appearify Slick before he hits the lava in this panel.

Vriska will board the meteor when it passes through a dream bubble and refuse to leave.

[Nero11]

About timelines and universes.
I think of it this way: Normal timeline divergence takes place within the universe, you can enter another one with time travel, but the scratch is a super powerful plot-device and that divergence envelops the entire universe making different timeline universes. Because of the weirdness of the furthest ring these are both some frogs floating next to each other around the green sun.

[tanquerayChampion]

Also, I guess it's possible that he wants his own universe? I don't know. I think he's perfectly content with eating universes.

IDE: Lord English eats universes because he just really, really likes the taste of frog. Please don't kill me.

Or actually, because that's the only thing that has enough calories to sustain him in his quest of hunting and killing Lovecraftian megagods whose very whispers are enough to destroy sanity. (All the sanity. All of it.)

[ardentApathy]

IDE: Lord English eats universes because he just really, really likes the taste of frog. Please don't kill me.

Or actually, because that's the only thing that has enough calories to sustain him in his quest of hunting and killing Lovecraftian megagods whose very whispers are enough to destroy sanity. (All the sanity. All of it.)

I was gonna say that First Guardians are sustained entirely by the Green Sun, but then I remembered Bec eating the irradiated steak and GOOD DOG, BEST FRIEND. So... yeah, maybe he just likes the taste? o_o

[Reecer6]

Ide/Theory: To be the reverse of the Beta kids, all the Alpha kids except Jane (If they all get in the medium) go god tier early on, with Jane only doing it in the EOA6/7.

[researcherWisemon]

Probably been said before in another thread, but... I don't see it here.

IDE/Theory: Since it seems the meteor duplication is a normal part of the Scratch, LE's calling card "Subtle Glitch" is being able to calculate Pi to a final digit, as Auto-Responder has done.