IDE/Theory Thread 24: The Pink Moon's moon is Io

**Crispiness** · 03-18-2012, 02:14 PM

Dreambubble Grandpa.

**Conspicuous** · 03-18-2012, 02:30 PM

Grandpa will perform zany Bernie Lomax-esque corpse puppet antics after being mysteriously teleported back from space.

**emberwing** · 03-18-2012, 02:30 PM

I think Karkat is an empath. He's good at reading people, hearing their problems, and saying what others need to hear. For goodness sakes, he was willing to stop and listen to Eridans problems and actually give some solid advice. Considering all he knows is from romcoms, I'd say his grasp of psychology is pretty impressive. This is could explain his far from pleasant temperament- trolls ain't nice to be around even when you can't feel their emotions. When Equius offers a brotherly hug, Karkles recoils with a 'Don't touch me.' Well, not only would he most likely be crushed, but touching tends to just amplify the empathy thing, and I personally don't really want to have an idea of what goes on in Equius's mind. I already think the Blood aspect relates to this, so in the event of God Tier his empathy would be more pronounced? Besides, the Sufferer was clearly a sympathetic, if not empathetic, individual.
Probably won't come into play in the story even IF this is cannon, but I think it's just a nice background look into how Karkat functions as a character.

**MegaRock35** · 03-18-2012, 02:31 PM

Pesterchum must be the "bargain crack" Andrew mentioned, because IDE/Theory: Andrew won't extrapolate on Troll reproduction because it is a major plot point.

I can see the end of Homestuck now:

"congratulations terezi its a-- oh what the fuck"
"

"

**GiovanH** · 03-18-2012, 02:59 PM

Skaia can only change meteors.
The rest of the world was the same.
The kids' first universe had a Betty Crocker that was "not human".
Therefore, the kids' universe had the troll empress hiding somewhere.

**Nero11** · 03-18-2012, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by emberwing

I think Karkat is an empath. He's good at reading people, hearing their problems, and saying what others need to hear. For goodness sakes, he was willing to stop and listen to Eridans problems and actually give some solid advice. Considering all he knows is from romcoms, I'd say his grasp of psychology is pretty impressive. This is could explain his far from pleasant temperament- trolls ain't nice to be around even when you can't feel their emotions. When Equius offers a brotherly hug, Karkles recoils with a 'Don't touch me.' Well, not only would he most likely be crushed, but touching tends to just amplify the empathy thing, and I personally don't really want to have an idea of what goes on in Equius's mind. I already think the Blood aspect relates to this, so in the event of God Tier his empathy would be more pronounced? Besides, the Sufferer was clearly a sympathetic, if not empathetic, individual.
Probably won't come into play in the story even IF this is cannon, but I think it's just a nice background look into how Karkat functions as a character.

I have this suspicion too, but I'm hoping for something cooler.

**InnerRayg** · 03-18-2012, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by GiovanH

Skaia can only change meteors.
The rest of the world was the same.
The kids' first universe had a Betty Crocker that was "not human".
Therefore, the kids' universe had the troll empress hiding somewhere.

We actually knew this, remember when Nanna extrapolated on how the baroness who raised her wasn't human?

**The Mather1** · 03-18-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by GiovanH

Skaia can only change meteors.
The rest of the world was the same.
The kids' first universe had a Betty Crocker that was "not human".
Therefore, the kids' universe had the troll empress hiding somewhere.

She supposedly disappeared after Nanna grew up, which means either she or Grandpa did something to make her leave that Jade and John didn't. Alternatively Jade and John both made such poor business people that she didn't see putting either of them in charge as a wise move.

But whatever the reason, there's one question that I fear will always remain unanswered: Who the hell is Troll Betty Crocker? (See the box of Trollups in Karkat's room in [S] Past Karkat: Wake up.)

**d2r123** · 03-18-2012, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by cyberHeroine

See, the problem with the idea that the timeline could work without time travel, and one you still haven't addressed, is that not only do you have to explain how everything could happen without time travel, you also have to explain why it didn't.

Oh, but I have.
Dave walks into the basement of his house and finds a dead version of himself. The result is that he doesn't die. See, there was an original timeline where Dave walked into the basement and was stabbed by hearts(or whichever card). That HAPPENED with no time travel. It was then prevented by dave using time travel. There were no loose ends in this one, however, because dave hadn’t managed to alter anything with his death other then the state of that timeline as alpha. In the same way, the time-robot army legitimately failed 1000 or something times before the phykic power added up. Right now I am dealing with the whole original timeline -> time travel timeline everyone sees thing and not the destiny thing.

Originally Posted by Stormspirit

They are still paradoxes because of the genetic code (for Doc Scratch) and their time travel (for Becquerel). Doc Scratch's genetic code was contained in a book which existed in a doomed timeline, thus it doesn't really exist. And Becquerel was actually created with the MEOW code, in the Frog Temple, long before said code was written, then sent back through a defense portal 413 millions of years before his creation.

Originally Posted by NeoPhantom

The MEOW code was written by Rose in her sleep, the code was stolen by Dave, then by DD who used the code to create Becquerel who got sent to the past. Bec was created AFTER the code was written by Rose...

The code was scrawled on a wall by a girl who hears horror terrors and smeared by an insane murderer with a drug addled brain(among other doc copies). Logic and thought were not being used by these players. The code being generated was totally random. Without pre-destiny of some sort, such incredible odds would never have perfectly resulted in beq or doc.

Now, the exact manner by which events like the green sun and doc and beq and the human players were created would be obscured and any idea of them would be merely theory but that is what this thread is for and you seem to be after an explanation as to how predestined events like the green sun could have happened in the original timeline, not how they actually happened. I can provide you with that.

First, there can be other green suns, I am going to put that out there, but I will try to go on an explanation that will not account for the possibility that another green sun could power the first guardians in the original timeline. Prepare for a long ass, totally relevant, guess fest. To be perfectly redundant, the fact that these events are not guaranteed to be the cannon manner in which the requirements were met does not matter to this argument, only the idea that such a set of events is possible matters.

Originally, trolls were created in a2. There is no way I could possibly see that far back, but one possibility is that average people from the civilization created them as champions. Another possibility is that a higher up session was involved. Another possibility is that the prospit and skyaia kingdoms made them for the express purpose of fighting in the war, just like the weird horses we saw on the a2 ectobiology station. I am going to select the warring kingdoms. So, the warring kingdoms developed the players and their fantastically potent magical powers alongside the other creatures around the meteor. Prototyping occurred equal to the number of players. The kernel sprite towers were built to hold the sprites and upgrade the field.can only assume that this means that kernel sprites can’t exist without a player to support them. The number of planets is also equal to the number of players. I can only assume that the planets were used to either level the player, if that was even needed, train the player to act like a chess general, use enemy grist to create a war fleet, or some other war-related explanation. With all of the odds in their favor, the war was quick and they had plenty of time to create a frog with people who actually understand how to create genetic code with a specific outcome. They entered the new session successfully where they found no players. The tumor was only ever described as a bomb and so it makes sense that the trolls would want to remove the bomb. After all, the kingdoms don’t seem to be all knowing. To this end, they created a set of heroes tailored to navigation and a set of adults suited to raising the players. The void countered the seer. Life countered the violent power of wind. Heart targeted Dave’s heart rather than the physical Dave. He is afraid and respectful of dirk. Jake was a page and didn’t need to actually be near to help (the wind of the mail system). The navigation based team was then sent into deep space and first guardians became possible after the tumor, a game generated object that exists in every b1 instance, exploded and the hero’s died their heroic deaths. Because first guardians were possible, they were a far better choice as a hero. Because beq could be created, the prospit forces created him. He became the new final boss. With beq as a final boss, the b1 session became unwinnable and the entrance of the trolls was prevented. Because the trolls of a2 could not win, they decided to counter a first guardian with a first guardian. We still don’t know how lil call got to a1 in any timeline so I can’t begin to speculate on that. The white guy would begin to pave the way for his master and would likely refuse to fight beq directly. He would instead show the trolls the way to send a copy of themselves to the pre-scratch universe where they could make a deal with a daemon and activate a thing called a scratch that would alter their odds of a2 success. The scratch killed the dragon which led to the kernel sprite prototyping with it. Also, the skyaia scientists no longer created heroes because they believed that heroes already existed. After the trolls were unable to enter b1, john had to use ectobiology. Beq also had to help raise jade and the code for beq had to be created. All of the heroes still had to create the green sun and a final boss with green sun powers had to be created.
Also, the bunny loop had to occur so john’s session was doomed to scratch.

So, yeah, it's possable.

**reignonyourparade** · 03-18-2012, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by plainWonder

IDE/Theory: When Karkat and John finally meet face to face, they will shake hands in a similar manner as Karkat and Jack did on LOPAH, possibly in Hero Mode.

And then it turns out John has pulled a fast one, and Karkat is left shaking a fake arm.

(A thank-you note to Blaperile for coming up with the first part of this theory and inspiring me to come to the logical conclusion.)

There's no chance its not going to be a joy buzzer

**Ace of Dark-Hearts** · 03-18-2012, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Mather1

She supposedly disappeared after Nanna grew up, which means either she or Grandpa did something to make her leave that Jade and John didn't. Alternatively Jade and John both made such poor business people that she didn't see putting either of them in charge as a wise move.

But whatever the reason, there's one question that I fear will always remain unanswered: Who the hell is Troll Betty Crocker? (See the box of Trollups in Karkat's room in [S] Past Karkat: Wake up.)

Probably still the Condesce

That didn't stop being a thing, you know.

**Doom Zero** · 03-18-2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by d2r123

Oh, but I have.
Dave walks into the basement of his house and finds a dead version of himself. The result is that he doesn't die. See, there was an original timeline where Dave walked into the basement and was stabbed by hearts(or whichever card). That HAPPENED with no time travel. It was then prevented by dave using time travel. There were no loose ends in this one, however, because dave hadn’t managed to alter anything with his death other then the state of that timeline as alpha. In the same way, the time-robot army legitimately failed 1000 or something times before the phykic power added up. Right now I am dealing with the whole original timeline -> time travel timeline everyone sees thing and not the destiny thing.

So, yeah, it's possable.

Dude... What?

I'm going to just... respond to the dead Dave thing, and leave it at that, because oh my god I just... I don't know what you are saying.

See, here's what happened originally: Dave(1) sees the journals gone, and wonders what happened them. Dave(1) goes back in time. There are now two Daves. Dave(1) is the original dave, and Dave(2) is the dave that hasn't seen the journals gone yet. Dave(1) and sees DD. DD kills Dave(1), and leaves his corpse there while he escapes. Dave(2) comes downstairs and sees the journals gone. Dave(2) is about to go back in time, but he sees Dave(1)'s body lying there, and decides that would be a bad idea.

Dave(1)'s timeline (also called timeline(1)) can be labelled a Doomed timeline of the natural variety, because without any outside influence it will proceed down this path and Dave(1) will time travel away. Timeline(1) is doomed because it now lacks a Dave, and none of the events that Dave is predicted to take part in will occur.

Dave(2)'s timeline is the Alpha timeline. In it, Dave(2) sees Dave(1)'s corpse and is persuaded not to time travel to find out what happened to the books. Timeline(2) is not doomed because Dave does not die, and from there he can take part in the events that are predicted to occur.

If viewed from a singular timeline perspective (focused on Timeline(2)), it is a paradox because Dave did not time travel because he saw his corpse, and so he did not die. If he did not die, then why is his corpse there as evidence to persuade him not to time travel? That's why it is a paradox on a UniTemporal scale.
If viewed from a multiple timeline perspective (MTP), it is not a paradox. With a MTP, you observe two distinctive Daves. One of them leaves his timeline, causing it to be doomed due to lack of Daves. The other simply observes the outcome of the event caused by the first Dave's time travel.

Also, I don't really want to know where you came up with the idea that a paradox has to have an initial factor. I mean the following in all seriousness... with paradoxes, you cannot have an "original timeline". You cannot have a timeline which "enables" paradoxes to exist. They exist because they exist and that is literally as far as anybody can go with a paradox.

**cyberHeroine** · 03-18-2012, 07:11 PM

Sometimes you stop arguing with someone because you realise that their point is right, or actually makes sense. Other times, such as this one, you realise that the person you are arguing with will just keep pulling stuff out of their ass until you let it go. Therefore, I am going to leave the paradox debate until it inevitably crops up again in a few months or so. d2r123 will likely take this as a victory, but the fact is I don't care to argue with anyone who isn't going to use facts.

**UnstableCreature** · 03-18-2012, 08:03 PM

I Think There Is A Possibility That Jake Had Something To Do With Lord English (Obviously But) As In, Provided Some Type Of Assistance In Helping Him Be Born Through Doc Scratch? If That Makes Sense. Lord English Really Is A Hard Character To Try And Think About To Me Because He Has A Jacket With Tails Like Calmasis' And He Looks Like Cal. What On Earth Happened There? Haha. But I Honestly Think That There Is SOMETHING To Do With The Book. Or At Least I Would Want To Think Hussie Didnt Scribble Into The Books For Nothing. But It Would Also Make Sense That UU Ties Into The Book Somehow Because It Was SAID That Rose Did Write COTL? Hmmm.. Though I Still Think That Calmasis Has Something To Do With Zazzerpan Maybe? But Lord English Is Starting To Make Me Confused With All Of The Places He Is Popping Up At, But I Think That Jake May Have Access To Lord English's Power Somehow.

**DenizenShipper** · 03-18-2012, 08:13 PM

IDE: Quadrant vaccilation is being explained to us now because it will happen to PM/Jack later, putting them in a reciprocated relationship. I just really don't think they're going to fight to the death.

Also, for some reason I assumed that everyone expects the scratched human session to create the initial (pre-scratch) troll session. However, I have realized that I have never heard anyone talk about it. So, I guess what I'm asking is... Why isn't this mentioned more?

Edit: I don't read this comprehensively. If there is a relevant post, please share it.

**Ace of Dark-Hearts** · 03-18-2012, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by UnstableCreature

I Think There Is A Possibility That Jake Had Something To Do With Lord English (Obviously But) As In, Provided Some Type Of Assistance In Helping Him Be Born Through Doc Scratch? If That Makes Sense. Lord English Really Is A Hard Character To Try And Think About To Me Because He Has A Jacket With Tails Like Calmasis' And He Looks Like Cal. What On Earth Happened There? Haha. But I Honestly Think That There Is SOMETHING To Do With The Book. Or At Least I Would Want To Think Hussie Didnt Scribble Into The Books For Nothing. But It Would Also Make Sense That UU Ties Into The Book Somehow Because It Was SAID That Rose Did Write COTL? Hmmm.. Though I Still Think That Calmasis Has Something To Do With Zazzerpan Maybe? But Lord English Is Starting To Make Me Confused With All Of The Places He Is Popping Up At, But I Think That Jake May Have Access To Lord English's Power Somehow.

Ow

My eyes

You aren't supposed to use typing quirks outside of the RP threads.

**Crispiness** · 03-18-2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by DenizenShipper

IDE: Quadrant vaccilation is being explained to us now because it will happen to PM/Jack later, putting them in a reciprocated relationship. I just really don't think they're going to fight to the death.

Also, for some reason I assumed that everyone expects the scratched human session to create the initial (pre-scratch) troll session. However, I have realized that I have never heard anyone talk about it. So, I guess what I'm asking is... Why isn't this mentioned more?

Edit: I don't read this comprehensively. If there is a relevant post, please share it.

Although a humorous sequence of events to be sure, Jack mercilessly killed most of PM's friends. I really don't think there is any chance for a relationship at all. Though maybe I'm just looking at it from a rather anthrocentric perspective.

In regards to the second part: it was a common IDE that was discussed a lot near the beginning of Act 6.

**azhdrake** · 03-18-2012, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by DenizenShipper

Also, for some reason I assumed that everyone expects the scratched human session to create the initial (pre-scratch) troll session. However, I have realized that I have never heard anyone talk about it. So, I guess what I'm asking is... Why isn't this mentioned more?

Yeah, this is mostly not talked about because everyone knows about it and most everything has already been said. People either think it will happen, or they don't. Mostly we are waiting for more canon evidence for or against.

**ponce** · 03-18-2012, 09:01 PM

IDE: Karkat is hitting that sweet brodacious Dave ass.

**reignonyourparade** · 03-18-2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Crispiness

Though maybe I'm just looking at it from a rather anthrocentric perspective.

Fixed that for you.

**Crispiness** · 03-18-2012, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by reignonyourparade

Fixed that for you.

Thank you.

**Doom Zero** · 03-18-2012, 09:19 PM

Theory: Because God Tier clothes never get dirty, they must vaporize any dirt that gets near them

Karkat's mouth is now plaque free from chewing on the cape.
Flossing with the cape would render your mouth germ-free forever.

**d2r123** · 03-18-2012, 09:21 PM