Choice Asspects and Class-y Discussion V2.0

[cardiacAtrophy]

You can also hear wind on LOSAZ in the DOTA update.

[The_Codfish]

Looking at that DOTA page again......I just realized the horses were a part of Tavros' land. Anyone else belatedly realize this? It makes some sense. Horses running around, kicking up a storm.

[Arcanum]

Not precisely. Active classes "exploit their Aspect to benefit themselves". Whether a class is active or passive seems to depend more on its use than the nature of its powers. John tends to use his powers for other players or his consorts; he puts out LOWAS and saves the salamanders (also himself, but he could have just flown away instead of creating a world-spanning hurricane), he digs out the Tumor for Rose, and he scratches Beat Mesa under orders from Jade, Karkat, and Rose.

UU: a rogUe is a passive class. yoU see, there are passive (+) and active (-) classes. some more strongly passive or active than others.
UU: the +/- distinction can mean many things, bUt coUld be qUite roUghly sUmmed Up in this way: active classes exploit their aspect to benefit themselves, while passive classes allow their aspect to benefit others.
UU: bUt of coUrse there's plenty more to it, and that rUle is in no way absolUte. only a starting point for Understanding the dichotomy.

I think we've all kind of forgotten about the last line I quoted in the page you linked. that rUle is in no way absolUte. That's why I'm of the mind that there is a scale, as Calliope described in regards to Princes, where you have the more active/passive classes on the far ends of their respective sides on the scale, but classes near the middle of the precipice between +/- would be more blurred in their distinction. Which can explain why John's use of his Breath powers can be taken as an offensive attack to aid himself (especially during Cascade), but can remain Passive. Or why he could have the Breeze protect others (like when John did the Windy thing to put out Jack's fire on LOWAS) but remain Active. But classes like Prince/Bard where they are far on their side of the scale have a clear distinction, that they are active/passive (respectively).

As for the Equius and his Void powers, John was surrounded by the Breeze, just as Equius seemed to be surrounded in the Void.

Ancestors have some semblance of their powers if they were the players. E%ectuor Darkleer, in the A1 session, was the Hero of Void, so some of his powers carried over into the scratched session, where he was now the ancestor. And it's shown that the A1 players and A2 players have the same aspect, based on their sign (The Pisces trolls were both the Heroes of Life, the Scorpio trolls were both the Heroes of Light). So Equius, as the Heir of Void, inherited his ancestor's powers, which he had because he was a child of S***B.

Equius inherited the void from Darkleer.

As the Heir of Void.

Also, there is no compelling evidence to either side of the argument that there is/is not a Breeze (in regards to a separate entity like on LOWAS) on LOSAZ, besides actual Wind (Zephyr is the western, favored wind, and wind creates sand dunes, found all over his planet). Each planet is different in each separate session of S***B. In the B1 session, Rose's Denizen, Cetus, killed all the marine life on LOLAR and then took a nap, but there's no evidence towards Vriska's version of Cetus doing the same thing ("AG: She was this awful sea monster. Her lair was deep underground amidst a 8unch of shipwrecks. She was quite vicious and territorial. I knew I had to kill her quickly to release the hoard, 8efore she had the chance to do anything tricky" was the only mention of Cetus by Vriska, and that conversation being the only mention of any of the Troll's Denizens), despite also being a world of water (which seems to be a constant for any Hero of Light's planet). The Breeze seemed to be an entity unique to LOWAS, and controlled by Typheus, who got angry when the Heir of Breath inherited the power to use his Breath powers, which involved Typheus's Breeze. But Breath powers seem to encompass wind in general, as John was able to manipulate the wind on the Battlefield to form a world-shattering hurricane, and to create tornadoes to kick up lava on LOHAC during Cascade. Tavros, as the Page of Breath (Pages being described by brain!Dirk as having great potential, despite being relatively weak regarding their aspect right away) didn't seem to use his Breath powers when he tried to kiss Vriska. Just as the sun on Earth is depicted as the symbol for Light, breathing is a difficult action to be captured by a media like a webcomic, so Hussie just used something similar to the Breath symbol for Tavros breathing (presumably out, a nervous exhale?).

[Juju]

Looking at that DOTA page again......I just realized the horses were a part of Tavros' land. Anyone else belatedly realize this? It makes some sense. Horses running around, kicking up a storm.

Well... its possible, but i think it's unlikely that LoSaZ actually had horses.

DOn't forget, it wasn't really Tavros's land, it was a dreambubble, and as we've seen before, a dreambubbles landscape can be an odd mix of it's inhabitants memories, one of which was Hussie.

It makes much more sense if the horses are just part of the waste of space's memories

[The_Codfish]

Yeaaaaah, there were horses in Hussie's dreamland as well. So either the horses are from Hussie's "home", or the horses did come from Tavros' land; Hussie just added them to his "home" like he did the centaur-butlers and Scratch's home. When it comes to plagiarizing his own work, Hussie is simply the best there is.

[Doc Scratch]

Judging from those last flashes, Heroes of Heart tend to be selfless, doing anything to protect friends(Dirk BEHEADING himself to save everybody, Nepeta attacking Gamzee).

[Arcanum]

Crossposting from the IDE/Theory thread, because relevancy:

IDE/Theory: As the Prince of Heart (one of Prince's abilities, as described by Calliope, is "one who destroys x, or caUses destrUction throUgh x." Focus on the second part), if he ascends, Dirk will be able to "split" himself into splinters of himself, and fight using those. The less splinters, the more powerful the individual/s is/are, and inversely, the more splinters, the less powerful. But at that point, you have the factor of quantity over quality, and while they return to main!Dirk, he gets the factor of quality over quantity. Which could explain why the lantern shattered on LOCAH, since Dirk would be at his most powerful when he is completely together.

Fits in with the "splintered self" that Dirk leads and Calliope mentions to him while describing the Prince and Bard classes. Still not sure how Nepeta's powers would work, unless she can just steal love from others and distribute it to her friends as a shipper, influencing relationships.

@Scratch: The beheading was technically essential in order to complete the time loop (if he hadn't decapitated himself and sent his head to Jake to kiss him, he wouldn't have woken up on Derse, or kissed Jane awake on Prospit, or saved Roxy from the Miles, or entered the Lotus Time Capsule, or had the sordid receptacle in order to fill with water in order to wake Jake up so that Jake could kiss Dirk's head so that Dirk could wake up on Derse...), but it seems that, based on similar aspects, people aren't that similar, especially when you compare people of a similar aspect to people of a similar class. John and Tavros being extremely passive could be one, but that could also be due to the possible passive nature of both Heir and Page. The Summoner is/was a Hero of Breath, but he was more aggressive than Tavros and John combined, so who knows? However, it seems people with matching classes have similar personalities: Jade and Feferi were both outgoing and ----EXCIT---ED, except after Jade woke up from her first deathbubble nap and during a few conversations with Karkat when he wouldn't provide a password; Rose and Terezi both rarely said what they meant, Rose was always being sarcastic and snarky, while Terezi would mess with people's emotions and thoughts, especially Karkat's; Dave and Karkat both had the tendency to protect their Friends; Vriska and Meenah were both the troublemakers of their respective sessions; Kanaya and Aranea are both auspitices and generally helpful, often to the point of being described as fussy; Dirk and Eridan are both somewhat arrogant, Eridan moreso, but Dirk as well because he doesn't reveal his plans to his friends, even if they could help out, describes himself as the puppet-master (not just literally, but in the sense of making sure events go the way they are supposed to), and doesn't admit his mistakes until after the fact (such as when he beheaded HB and stuck his head in on a pike, attracting the attention of HIC and DD, eventually causing DD to unleash the Miles on Derse); Roxy and Nepeta both like meowcats. This isn't always the case, as John and Equius don't seem to have similar personalities, nor do Jake and Tavros or Jane and Aradia.

A theory I have on how classes are assigned is that its an equal balance of passive and active. If we look at the B1 session, Heir is possibly passive, Knight is possibly active, Seer is passive and Witch is active. Balance. In the A2 troll session, all of those mentioned already are there. Prince is active, Bard is passive, Thief is active, Rogue is passive. Page is possibly passive, Maid is possibly active, Mage is possibly active, Sylph is most likely passive (as shown by all Sylphs so far assisting others, or at least attempting and offering). There is a balance there. If Page is passive and Maid is active, than the B2 session is also balanced, as Prince is active and Rogue is passive. Assuming the A1 session has the same classes as the A2 session, just jumbled around, than that session is also balanced. The uU session is also balanced, as Muse is the most passive class while uu's class is the most active.

And then I realized that most people probably already figured that out.

[Atomic Kitty]

The Summoner is/was a Hero of Breath, but he was more aggressive than Tavros and John combined, so who knows?

I'm eager to see what a Prince of Breath can do. That's jumping in an extreme, but at least, it will be a full demonstration of Breath in an active class (and at the same time, a demonstration of the behaviour of a douche of Breath). Tavros said he would do things without the permission of anyone if he had more confidence.

Dirk and Eridan are both somewhat arrogant, Eridan moreso, but Dirk as well because he doesn't reveal his plans to his friends, even if they could help out, describes himself as the puppet-master (not just literally, but in the sense of making sure events go the way they are supposed to), and doesn't admit his mistakes until after the fact (such as when he beheaded HB and stuck his head in on a pike, attracting the attention of HIC and DD, eventually causing DD to unleash the Miles on Derse);

The thing I noticed in both Princes is that, they apply their ideas through the hard way : Eridan by blowing anything hopeful to prove there's no hope left and they had better to surrender for his team's sake and Dirk because he "destroyed his own heart" by being confident in his own plans (set with AR, an emotionless AI), such as risking his own life : "I believe in Jake but I can't reach him. So what should I do ? I cut my own head and he'll kiss me while I'll handle the cool job". Such actions are double-edged swords. Eridan proved it very well by making himself an enemy of his own team.

Now I'm wondering what a Seer of Time can do... Following the past and future trails of her friends and enemies, perhaps.

[Arcanum]

Now I'm wondering what a Seer of Time can do... Following the past and future trails of her friends and enemies, perhaps.

Since Seer's description seems to be "Using X to see an outcome" and "Seeing an outcome of X," X as always being the Aspect, I'd wager that the Seer of Time can, in a sense, do what Trace and Fin (the members of the felt who can follow the past and future paths, respectively) can do. But it could also extend to knowing where a split occurs that causes a doomed timeline. For example, a fully realized Seer of Time would've been able to see that John taking the shortcut to his 7th gate would cause a doomed timeline.

Since all of our known time players are possibly active classes (Knight and Maid aren't confirmed as being either passive or active, but uu's class is a confirmed active class), and since both known players traveled through time in order to make sure that the timeline goes the right away (the Dave that becomes Davesprite travels back in time to when Dave enters and when John is about to blast off to his doom in order to make sure John doesn't die, and the Aradiabot in the dream bubble sequence starting here who came back to ensure the MOBIIU2 DOUBLE REACHAROUND VIRU2 was ran by Karkat, so that Gamzee didn't go insane before the session really started), I'll presume that passive classes won't do much of that, but would do a better job of preventing the offshoot timelines in the first place.

[Altum]

This isn't always the case, as John and Equius don't seem to have similar personalities, nor do Jake and Tavros or Jane and Aradia.

Jane and Aradia are both tough-minded, pro-active and cheerful, with a taste for investigating mysteries and fedoras (detectives/archeology). John and Equius both have doting guardians and have trouble living up to what they think they should be despite literal and figurative STRENGTHs.

John's low self-esteem is downplayed compared to Equius' goofy issues, but his room IS covered with self-loathing statements he wrote without being aware of it. They have had a lot handed to them, but they aren't arrogant or entitled about it. (Equius thinks he should be, but sucks at it.) Both of them aspire to honor their legacies (comedy/authority), and struggle with it.

(Interesting aside: Dave and Karkat both stake powerful and really, more successful, claims on the same legacies, despite lacking the advantages and histories of the Heirs.)

Tavros and Jake are idealists and sweethearts, who have a less-than-nuanced understanding of the world and a distaste for compromise. Tavros thinks you can really stop bullies by just standing up to them, and Jake thinks he can fix the future by punching space fish Hitler as a little girl.

EDIT: Princes are ruthless (Machiavelli!) and confident in their own power to the point of arrogance. The thing about that kind of confidence is that when it works you look golden, but if you fail you're a joke (or worse). I'd say Heirs and Princes are parallel classes, not in terms of the underlying 'verb' of their activity, but in terms of flavor and other class traits. They are different ways you can handle being handed a lot of power up front.

[Doc Scratch]

A seer of time would be able to do exactly what Trace and Fin does, albeit without following them. However, the traced individual will need to be within the line of sight of the Seer. So it doesn't intrude into Space territory as much. Which also brings up an interesting thought. A Seer of Time can circumvent this by tracing another's past/future, because by tracing the individual, she sees around the traced individual. Doesn't really intrude into Space powers since she's using a medium to see.

[Majora787]

I'd think a Seer of Time would also have a much better natural instinct of time that all time heroes seem to have.

Semi-related, I could see the pre-scratch handmaid being a Seer of Time. Dunno why.

[The_Codfish]

I imagine that a Seer of Time's powers, when she's using them (since Rose doesn't constantly see glimpses of the "future"), would look a lot like that scene from Limitless, when the main character took the drug for the first time and started seeing his "past" and "future" selves doing stuff he wanted/knew he should do, and he went along with it. Just seems like it'd fit. Visually.

[cardiacAtrophy]

I'd think a Seer of Time would also have a much better natural instinct of time that all time heroes seem to have.

Semi-related, I could see the pre-scratch handmaid being a Seer of Time. Dunno why.

I find this extremely likely, as the post-scratch handmaid is seen using needlewands, much like rose.

[Vanymstorm]

Semi-related, I could see the pre-scratch handmaid being a Seer of Time. Dunno why.

I dunno why either. Contrasting her post-scratch counterpart with Aradia, (which I hold as step one to this sort of thing,) she is less subtle, and not terribly inclined to direct others. Beyond that, I don't get the impression of her being the thoughtful and insightful type, either. Pretty much nothing we've learned or observed about Seers applies beyond that she's female.

I find this extremely likely, as the post-scratch handmaid is seen using needlewands, much like rose.

We've had two other wand wielders, both of different classes, neither a Seer. We've had three (confirmed so far) riflekind users, all different classes again, one of them also among the aforementioned wandkind users. If there's any precedent at all for this line of thinking... I'll dispense with the insincere hedging: there isn't any precedent, nor would it make much sense for this to be relevant.

But let's say the weapons are indicative of her Class. Rose has indeed become a fine example of a Seer... but only after losing her wands along with her specibus. Before that, she was trying to be someone more hands-on. In fact, some were surprised to learn she even was the Seer, since she seemed a shoe-in for the Witch, a role that (unsurprisingly) is much more active. So if we're to take these weapons as being symbolic of a particular role, shouldn't it be that of the Witch, rather than the Seer?

Come to think, when the Condesce is referred to as a "witch", it's apparently only in the context of her working for LE. And she "replaced" the Handmaid at his side... Hm.

[Doc Scratch]

It does fit. The Handmaid was extremely active in the world, pointing to witch, and her powers don't seem to point into the direction of the other classes.

[cardiacAtrophy]

I dunno why either. Contrasting her post-scratch counterpart with Aradia, (which I hold as step one to this sort of thing,) she is less subtle, and not terribly inclined to direct others. Beyond that, I don't get the impression of her being the thoughtful and insightful type, either. Pretty much nothing we've learned or observed about Seers applies beyond that she's female.


We've had two other wand wielders, both of different classes, neither a Seer. We've had three (confirmed so far) riflekind users, all different classes again, one of them also among the aforementioned wandkind users. If there's any precedent at all for this line of thinking... I'll dispense with the insincere hedging: there isn't any precedent, nor would it make much sense for this to be relevant.

But let's say the weapons are indicative of her Class. Rose has indeed become a fine example of a Seer... but only after losing her wands along with her specibus. Before that, she was trying to be someone more hands-on. In fact, some were surprised to learn she even was the Seer, since she seemed a shoe-in for the Witch, a role that (unsurprisingly) is much more active. So if we're to take these weapons as being symbolic of a particular role, shouldn't it be that of the Witch, rather than the Seer?

Come to think, when the Condesce is referred to as a "witch", it's apparently only in the context of her working for LE. And she "replaced" the Handmaid at his side... Hm.

My point.

The Handmaid that was incredibly destructive wielded needlewands.
The Seer that was incredibly destructive wielded needlewands.

The only other true wand user I can think of was Eridan, the prince. Princes ARE destructive by nature, but that's besides the point.

The point I'm making is that the only other female to use needlewands, and it draws a parallel, and implies a connection to me. Just as all space players are all connected to the color green, all time players to the color red, all life players to royalty, and all Heirs to strength.

I am not saying the weapon indicates the class, but rather that the situation hints at similarity.

Only after the Handmaid "loses" the wands, will she be a Seer, as in A2, she is a likely a Maid.

[Arcanum]

I'd think a Seer of Time would also have a much better natural instinct of time that all time heroes seem to have.

I should learn to make my posts less long winded. Basically a tl;dr version of my post a little bit above is: can follow past/future paths (like trace and fin), and see where an offshoot timeline occurs so they can prevent it before it happens, unless it needs to happen for the alpha to progress (like Davesprite), Passive classes would do less time traveling back to fix past mistakes than active classes did, but ensures shit stays safe. Active players just do stuff and then travel back to fix what was messed up in that timeline, like what all those Aradiabots were for.

Semi-related, I could see the pre-scratch handmaid being a Seer of Time. Dunno why.

But if she's the Seer, than the Signless can't be the Seer because she's already the Seer!


My headcanon for the Signless is that he is the Seer of Blood, and that because of his powers he was able to see visions of his friends in the A1 session he partook in, but he didn't see the whole picture (like how Rose can't see the full picture) and assumed the whole hemospectrum was abolished.

Only after the Handmaid "loses" the wands, will she be a Seer, as in A2, she is a likely a Maid.

But

Ancestors don't just change their title if they aren't playing the game. Sure, most of A2's ancestors are more involved with their aspect rather than their title, especially considering we don't know for sure what their titles were in A1 when they were the players. Rose in both instances of B is a Seer of Light. She knew things and charted favorable courses, the most obvious being Roxy's house being built modular, so it would be incorporated into the Chess Slums.

Children of S***B retain their title, but ancestors don't typically have their powers fully awakened. Usually it manifests in a clever way regarding their class, their aspect, or, more rarely, their title. Summoner could fly (Hero of Breath), Jade has had all the witch and Wizard of Oz allegories made by Jake (Witch), Rose did that thing I already mentioned (Seer of Light).

So if A1 Handmaid was the Witch, or the Seer, or whatever of Time, she isn't something completely different in A2. She is either a Witch/Seer/whatever, a user of Time Travel (which we know), or she has powers reminiscent of her role as the Witch/Seer/whatever of Time.

Based on her actions in A2, however, I would say her class would be active. Even in B2, Rose stayed fairly passive, placing thickly veiled allegories into the CotL series to let HIC know that she knew. It wasn't until basically all hope was lost for saving the Earth that she turned active and killed Fieri and faced off with the batterwitch with Dave.

[Legendary]

But if she's the Seer, than the Signless can't be the Seer because she's already the Seer!

If Mage is the active version of Seer, he could be that. Just saying.

[Arcanum]

If Mage is the active version of Seer, he could be that. Just saying.

Also likely, but since we don't know anything about Mage, we can't really say much. If we went off the description that Sollux's Mage of Doom powers presented themselves as the visions of personal doom he had, then the Signless would've seen the relationships of his friends in relation to him, or his own relations. The way Scratch told the story of the Signless Sufferer made it seem like he saw the world the way it was before, involving all the relationships and how the Hemospectrum was essentially reversed in the A1 "Alternia" (since Aranea confirmed Alternia was called something different in the initial instance, we don't know the real name. Since it was a heavy-handed change made by Scratch, my headcanon for A1 troll planet is "Nia"), and to the Sufferer, having lived in the A2 instance, the reversed hemospectrum would be a lot like there being no hemospectrum at all.

If Mage is the active version of Seer, I'd wager their verb is something along the lines of "Has visions of X," and that how its used, in regards to self or to the big picture, is related to the classes. Sollux saw his personal Doom, not the Doom of his friends. The most 'broad' he saw the Doom was the imminent annihilation of Alternia, which directly involved him (as he did die in the Vast Glub moments before entering). Rose saw the big picture and charted the course to the B2 session. Terezi saw the big picture (even though shes having doubts about that, but you can pin that on her not being a fully realized Seer of Mind) and killed Vriska to save everyones' lives. Seers, in that sense, would be a better tactician than the Mage. We still don't have a clue what they do though. Maybe, as one of the classes that invokes thought of 'magic' (Mage, Witch, Sylph), when they would ascend, they would use more offensive majyyk, in respect to their aspect. As we've seen, Sylphs are the "helper" class, or possibly the "White Mage" of S***B, and Witches manipulate their own aspect, so why not have an offensive majyyk class?

Also, Seers are shown to be exclusively female, but it hasn't been confirmed yet(?) that they are a female exclusive class. They could just be a class like Rogue/Thief, where they are usually female bUt not always.

If Signless isn't Seer, than he would most likely be Mage. But I'm sticking with my headcanon that its Seer of Blood.

[Majora787]

It seems to me like Seers can see things pertaining to their aspect that can/will lead them down the right path. i.e., Rose can see the courses of action "most likely" to bring the party to "success"(alpha timeline). And this would be used to guide and direct the party.

But the Mages on the other hand are shown things that will happen pertaining to their aspect on the alpha timeline. Like how Sollux is shown visions that everyone is basically dead in the end. Which is apparently a thing that will happen, but hasn't come true yet.

So I guess, Seers see how they get there but not how it ends, in a way that relates to their aspect... And Mages see how it ends but now how they get there, in a way that relates to their aspect.

Maybe? Sure.

[The_Codfish]

Sollux receiving visions of doom is related to his aspect, but it's not his Class's power. It's basically the same thing as Vriska's vision-8 fold, which allowed her to see through opaque surfaces. And we know that's a Seer of Light power.

[Legendary]

Sollux receiving visions of doom is related to his aspect, but it's not his Class's power.

Sollux is such a small sample size for both Mage and Doom that it's impossible to decide what is and isn't his class, except that his telekinesis is blood-related and not Doom-based.

[The_Codfish]

If we use Vriska as an example, than it does push Sollux' known abilities into just being natural, psychic abilities.

[Greyscale]

And I don't think you're supposed to lose your class powers just by getting blinded so I think the sort of pushes the visions even further into psychic territory

Like the part of his brain responsible for those powers shorted out when he got blind maybe