Choice Asspects and Class-y Discussion V2.0

[The_Codfish]

No way, maybe you're angry with me.

[Greyscale]

Nuh uh!

[unbeliever536]

About this: I believe it was Darkleer's "aura" that surrounded Equius' home, even after he died.

Mindfang's journal seems to imply that it was hidden somewhere for Vriska to find on her quest, like her dice. Darkleer's aura probably protected it there, but it wouldn't have traveled with the orb to Equius's location. (I could swear there's an image of the tomb somewhere when Vriska talks about getting the orb, but I can't find it)

[The_Codfish]

You consult with your MAGIC CUE BALL, an extremely rare treasure you recently plundered from an ancient crypt, and one of many rumored to be hidden across the globe.

Yeah, the image this sentence came from only shows Vriska holding the Cueball.

[Branetheory]

If the Breeze was a constant for all Breath players there would be SOME mention of it. The reference to it would have been made one way or another.

I don't see why. Tavros' planet was barely more important than any other troll's. It was/is unimportant to know if the The Breeze existed on Tavros' planet. Whether or not The Breeze existed on Tavros' planet has no evidence either way, other than that Typheus existed on Tavros' planet (IIRC) and a Typheus has had control over a breeze at some point. You're just projecting what you think to be the most pleasing as what is "likely" when there is really no concrete reason for what you believe to be more likely than the exact opposite. Maybe we weren't shown The Breeze because it was unimportant, maybe because it doesn't exist. Maybe when Tavros' planet is shown for more than a half dozen panels and is given some decent exposition will anybody be able to say whether anything about it is "likely".

Yeah, the image this sentence came from only shows Vriska holding the Cueball.

It also describes her plundering it from a crypt, which sure as hell is not Equius' hive. Unless Darkleer crawled from his cave thing to the spot Equius' hive would one day be built and then died there, his dark pocket persisting for some reason, I don't see how the dark pocket being Darkleer's makes sense.

[Greyscale]

I don't see why. Tavros' planet was barely more important than any other troll's. It was/is unimportant to know if the The Breeze existed on Tavros' planet. Whether or not The Breeze existed on Tavros' planet has no evidence either way, other than that Typheus existed on Tavros' planet (IIRC) and a Typheus has had control over a breeze at some point. You're just projecting what you think to be the most pleasing as what is "likely" when there is really no concrete reason for what you believe to be more likely than the exact opposite. Maybe we weren't shown The Breeze because it was unimportant, maybe because it doesn't exist. Maybe when Tavros' planet is shown for more than a half dozen panels and is given some decent exposition will anybody be able to say whether anything about it is "likely".

Man, Kanaya's planet was only seen for three or four panels and we knew about every single parallel it has with Jade's planet, from frogs to Forge to Echidna to etc.

Aradia's planet also got less proper exposure than Tavros's but the "music instrument made big is the Scratch maker" was still an easy conclusion to make, even though the detail is purely cosmetic.

Why would parallels of purely cosmetic details be clearer and more explicit than hypothetical parallels to the source of the main character's powers?

The logical default assumption would be that it's just not there, instead of extrapolating that it could be there but something something something

It's not impossible that there was a Breeze there, but so far there's no real reason to think that there is either.

[Branetheory]

There is no real reason to believe anything about the breeze on Tavros' planet. It being there or not being there are both equally likely. We know nothing. What I'm taking issue with is you saying that The Breeze definitely does not exist on Tavros' planet The Breeze being absent from Tavros' planet is automatically more likely than it being there. A theory involving Tavros' planet having The Breeze is no more or less likely than one that has Tavros' planet without The Breeze.

EDIT: Everything you mentioned regarding Space/Time players is plot critical, not "cosmetic details". They exist to highlight the template based nature of SBURB, as well as the general trend of Homestuck's reality being cyclical and self repeating and how it makes different things occur very similarly (see every callback panel ever, this page). Hypothetical parallels between Tavros and John's lands would be left unexplored because Tavros is by and large unimportant and John's powers are by and large unimportant. Showing they are similar would have no real purpose. This theme has been explored quite well from that angle and others. There's no reason to go back to it now. We still would not know anything more about the Breeze or Typheus or what the point of it all is if the breeze were on tavros' planet and it were shown.

John stopped being a main character a long time ago. He is at best a co-main character along with a dozen others, and far from the most important, plot relevant or even well realized.

[Legendary]

I'm not sure why you're being so rude about it, Greyscale, or why you're being so one-sided. That's how you understand it, and then you act as if it's the only way it can be interpreted? And then you go on to say that my way of thinking isn't elegant or understandable. I'm not even sure why you got so angry.

In all fairness, he's definitely right that we see Tavros exhaling.

[The_Codfish]

It also describes her plundering it from a crypt, which sure as hell is not Equius' hive. Unless Darkleer crawled from his cave thing to the spot Equius' hive would one day be built and then died there, his dark pocket persisting for some reason, I don't see how the dark pocket being Darkleer's makes sense.

I'm not sure why you had to mention Vriska plundering it from a crypt? unbeliever already stated that it was Darkleer's, so I thought it was already pretty clear.

Looking at Mindfang's journal again:

I cradled the oracle in my synthetic hand, as if appraising 8y w8 the mystic qualities it still concealed. With my vision 8fold seared away, I was as 8lind to its secrets as the old Doctor was to its present wherea8outs. I'd learned to keep it cloaked from the awareness of the man who once called me his protege, a 8ackhanded term of endearment from a smug manipul8or. Loc8ing his so called dark pockets was the only gam8it I had in countering his milktongued dou8lespeak. The expatri8 for indiscerni8le reasons seemed naturally surrounded 8y such a void in the Doctor's awareness, and so was uniquely fit to inherit the or8. The Doctor could not see his treasure, nor I into it.

It seems that, aside from Darkleer, there were other "natural" dark pockets in the world. Why were there "dark pockets"? Maybe Darkleer attracted them somehow. Who knows.

And, also, keep in mind that it's possible the Ancestors lived in the same location as their Descendants. All the Guardians did, anyway (with Nanna and Poppop, it's a bit ambiguous, but then again, John & Jane are special in that their Ectoparent had a child).

In all fairness, he's definitely right that we see Tavros exhaling.

I'm, uh, no. It doesn't even make sense. I'm pretty sure you don't exhale before you kiss. You either hold your breath (which means inhaling first), or you inhale and exhale slowly.

[Greyscale]

What I'm taking issue with is you saying that The Breeze definitely does not exist on Tavros' planet The Breeze being absent from Tavros' planet is automatically more likely than it being there.

But this is how basic logic works though.
The burden of proof doesn't lie with me. As long as there is no evidence that the Breeze exists on Tavros's planet, then there is no reason to believe that the Breeze exists on Tavros's planet. When there is absolutely no evidence of something (despite multiple opportunities for said evidence to come up), then of course the claim that relies on a lack of evidence is more likely than the claim that has the burden of proof.
This is a silly thing to take issue with, man. What are you even doing.

EDIT: Everything you mentioned regarding Space/Time players is plot critical, not "cosmetic details".

Knowing that A1 Megido's Beat Mesa looks like a music box is a pretty cosmetic detail dude.

And your stuff about the template just shows that a pattern not being repeated with Tavros strongly suggests that the pattern isn't there. Like you said, the story gives a huge amount of shit about templates. Why would it just ignore it? Because the character is unimportant? Sorry dude but Tavros isn't quite on the same level as Nepeta or Equius, we've followed him along long enough to learn a basic template/parallel such as the source of the main character's magic powers, even if to highlight how he didn't use it.

I'm, uh, no. It doesn't even make sense. I'm pretty sure you don't exhale before you kiss.

CPR, though.

Correction, magic CPR.

[unbeliever536]

Mindfang, the Handmaid, and the Condesce, at least, definitely did not live where their Descendants did. Both spent the entirety of their adult lives travelling, as far as we can tell. The Handmaid explicitly was raised by Doc Scratch and then passed off to Lord English; Mindfang, as far as we can tell, lived on her capital ship until it was destroyed by Redglare; Condy spends all of her time on the BC and/or in other universes.

[The_Codfish]

CPR, though.

Correction, magic CPR.

Oh yes, this is clearly quite a reasonable answer. I am completely satisfied.

Mindfang, the Handmaid, and the Condesce, at least, definitely did not live where their Descendants did. Both spent the entirety of their adult lives travelling, as far as we can tell. The Handmaid explicitly was raised by Doc Scratch and then passed off to Lord English; Mindfang, as far as we can tell, lived on her capital ship until it was destroyed by Redglare; Condy spends all of her time on the BC and/or in other universes.

There's also the Sufferer/Signless, who traveled a lot because he was a freak.

With Mindfang, it's hard to tell what happened to her. Somehow or other, her journal and belongings must have entered the Troll Session for it to be hurtled through a portal, crash, and be discovered by Vriska. The Condesce must have lived in the ocean, though, before she became the Empress (so it's possible Mindfang lived in the same place as Vriska when she was younger). The Handmaid is the second clear exception, aside from the Sufferer. Those two mirror there descendants that way (Karkat being an outcast, Aradia having no tower).

[Greyscale]

Oh yes, this is clearly quite a reasonable answer. I am completely satisfied.

I hope you're not being sarcastic.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Tavros to give Vriska "the kiss of life" after being prompted by voices in his head to give a kiss, instead of just a regular kiss for reasons beyond his knowledge or will (since he actively resisted kissing Vriska before)?

[Branetheory]

We are not constructing a logical proof, we are analyzing a work of art. Players of the same aspect having a planetary feature in common is far from an extraordinary claim requiring rigorous argument before we even accept it as a possibility. Just to be clear, I agree that any theory that starts "Both Tavros and John's planets had the Breeze, therefore..." is worthless, but a theory along the lines "If Tavros had the Breeze, maybe it would interact with a Page by..." could be explored reasonably.

As an aside, there have been all of 3 or so opportunities to bring up the mythology of Tavros' planet, one of which explicitly involved Vriska telling Tavros to stop investigating that stuff, another involved Tavros trying to save a dying frienemy, and the last time was not the best time to start talking about the mystical forces involved in the lives of a bunch of semi-intelligent reptilian chumps.

[The_Codfish]

I hope you're not being sarcastic.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Tavros to give Vriska "the kiss of life" after being prompted by voices in his head to give a kiss, instead of just a regular kiss for reasons beyond his knowledge or will?

Tavros likely knew the kiss could resurrect Vriska through Feferi (who likely got the info from her lusus), or indirectly from Karkat's memos. Everyone must have known Sollux died and was brought back to life by the point in the game where Tavros and Vriska were adventuring together. It makes more sense that way than for Tavros to suddenly give CPR. Would Trolls even actually teach medical techniques to their young? I mean Kanaya, the one you'd most expect to be the most adept at 'caring' for others, just chainsawed Tavros' legs off and had Equius do the rest of the work. At most, Trolls probably only know about survival and combat techniques.

[Greyscale]

We are not constructing a logical proof, we are analyzing a work of art.

There is no real difference between these two things, when you get down to it.

You can't just claim parallels exist when there's no evidence for it. It's possible, but it's still unlikely.

There have also been all of 3 or so opportunities to bring up the mythology of Tavros' planet, one of which explicitly involved Vriska telling Tavros to stop investigating that stuff, another involved Tavros trying to save a dying frienemy, and the third time was not the best time to start talking about the mystical forces involved in the lives of a bunch of semi-intelligent reptilian people.

Yo all it takes is one throwaway line.
We're not even talking about a grand demonstration of the Breeze's existence. But as it is now, you could look at the comic and at the author's comments and at absolutely everything about Homestuck that exists, think that the Breeze does not exist on Tavros's planet, and find absolutely nothing to contradict that thought.

You have a right to be upset at me if I said it was impossible. But all I said is that it's less likely than another possibility. That's not even a brick-house of a claim. That's just a little straw stand-in that's just waiting to be knocked down by even a single reference to the contrary, but still acknowledging that with current evidence (one collection of which is the lack thereof on Tavros's planet, the second collection being the way it interacts like a passive power around John and his allies) there are stronger alternative explanations (ie that the Breeze exists because John is an Heir with demonstrable power, as opposed to something that always exists independently of all Breath players no matter what).

edit- I mean dang, I'm not even saying it's INCREDIBLY more unlikely than the other.

I'm just talking the difference between seeing who'd win in a fight between Bruce Lee vs Jackie Chan, holding a baby, in a chair and ladder factory, who don't want no trouble.

show spoiler

hide spoiler

Bruce Lee would still win fyi

[Branetheory]

there are stronger alternative explanations (ie that the Breeze exists because John is an Heir with demonstrable power, as opposed to something that always exists independently of all Breath players no matter what

See, I don't get why you would say one of those possibilities is more likely than another. We never saw Equius do anything other than jump and punch on his planet, so how can you make any sort of claim about things common to heirs? Both of those assertions rest on the same amount of evidence (none at all). The Breeze being a Breath thing or the Breeze being an Heir of Breath thing are at least totally equally likely, in that there is no reason to believe either possibility. This is in no way a stronger explanation.

Regarding art: I'd like to see one attempt to use logical constructions to approach any surrealist works, especially those that specifically attempt to make use of irrational connections between ideas and symbols. You wouldn't have a single axiom to start from.

If one's axioms are completely correct and ones arguments using those axioms are logically sound, then ones conclusion from that argument must be correct, right? Correct me if that's wrong. The same cannot be said of any analysis of any work of art. Some might be more right than others, but you can never through logical argument produce a completely correct deduction of what a piece of art means, if anything. Humans and human art are not logical.

Anyway I'm far from being knowledgeable enough about art or logic to have an argument involving them, and I can see now I had merely misinterpreted what you were saying. I pretty much agree with what you are saying regarding probability. I believe the thematic use of repetition is enough to justify theorizing Tavros has the Breeze, but where did arguing about opinions ever take anyone.

Gonna sleep before I say anything really hamhanded

[unbeliever536]

See, I don't get why you would say one of those possibilities is more likely than another. We never saw Equius do anything other than jump and punch on his planet, so how can you make any sort of claim about things common to heirs? Both of those assertions rest on the same amount of evidence (none at all). The Breeze being a Breath thing or the Breeze being an Heir of Breath thing are at least totally equally likely, in that there is no reason to believe either possibility.

Equius has a veil around his hive. This was discussed upthread. It's possible that it's just a natural dark pocket or that it's some kind of remnant of Darkleer's pocket, but it's also reasonable to assume that Equius has the Cloud following him around the way John has the Breeze.

[Branetheory]

Well in that case I have to say I am completely and sincerely sold on the idea.

[unbeliever536]

Well in that case I have to say I am completely and sincerely sold on the idea.

It's 1:30, so I'm going to take your statement at face value and go to sleep basking in the glow of my victorious triumph in internet arguing.

[The_Codfish]

John also has an obscene amount of MANGRIT, so Heirs being insanely strong also seems like a thing.

[Greyscale]

See, I don't get why you would say one of those possibilities is more likely than another.

Because one could use what's actually in the comic and the author's comments as evidence, while the other relies on hypothetical evidence? It's pretty straight-forward.

We never saw Equius do anything other than jump and punch on his planet, so how can you make any sort of claim about things common to heirs?

I did explicitly mention Heirs who have demonstrated powers. This doesn't apply to Breath players like Tavros because if the Breeze didn't rely on the player's powers, then Tavros not demonstrating powers would be irrelevant.

If I went into this I would be going into hypothetical evidence, which I'm not a huge fan of, but if I were it would go something like this:

Mindfang implies that she needs to keep the cueball with Darkleer at all times to keep it hidden.
Yet Vriska was able to take it away from its hiding place and still have it Voided.
If I were to claim that this was the result of the Void acting like the Breeze, that is, acting independent of Equius's knowledge to serve his friends, would there be anything to contradict it?

I could make the claim, but it would be more unlikely than the idea that it was simply Darkleer's influence that kept it hidden. Yes, it's possible that it was Equius's Heir powers, and it would be consistent with what we know of the Breeze, but it's not as likely as the alternative because there is nothing in the comic explicitly suggesting Equius's involvement, while Darkleer's involvement WAS explicit.

You see how I'm operating here?

There's nothing wrong with something being a little more unlikely than something else, dude. It's not like I cussed someone's momma or anything. I'm just balancing the evidences. As it is now, the evidence supports one thing more than the other. But nothing is made MORE or LESS valid because of this.

Regarding art: I'd like to see one attempt to use logical constructions to approach any surrealist works, especially those that specifically attempt to make use of irrational connections between ideas and symbols. You wouldn't have a single axiom to start from.

If one's axioms are completely correct and ones arguments using those axioms are logically sound, then ones conclusion from that argument must be correct, right? Correct me if that's wrong. The same cannot be said of any analysis of any work of art. Some might be more right than others, but you can never through logical argument produce a completely correct deduction of what a piece of art means, if anything. Humans and human art are not logical.

But dude we're not talking about (pretend I'm doing wacky jazz hands here) ART, we're just talking about a game system that exists inside a piece of art. That system operates under internally consistent rules and patterns in order to maintain a level of believability and engagement with readers who themselves are familiar with internally consistent systems and the games that are based off them. This isn't exactly Waiting For Godot 2: Vladimir and Estragon's Excellent Adventure.

And because it operates under internally consistent rules and patterns, examples of it (evidence) has to be established beforehand before we can correctly claim that a rule or pattern exists. We extrapolate from the examples presented in the comic to establish patterns that fit into this internally consistent system. That's why evidence and logic are viable ways of thinking here.

Anyway I'm far from being knowledgeable enough about art or logic to have an argument involving them, and I can see now I had merely misinterpreted what you were saying. I pretty much agree with what you are saying regarding probability. I believe the thematic use of repetition is enough to justify theorizing Tavros has the Breeze, but where did arguing about opinions ever take anyone.

Cool

[Doc Scratch]

Tavros's planet has The Breeze, or some construction of wind. His planet is the Land of Sand and Zephyr, Zephyr being the Greek god of the West Wind. Might not be called the Breeze and it might not act the same way, but because Typheus supposedly controls it on LOWAS, it is probably true in the LOSAZ. The waves in the shy kind of help emphasize that.

[Legendary]

Tavros's planet has The Breeze, or some construction of wind.

We do not know that.

His planet is the Land of Sand and Zephyr, Zephyr being the Greek god of the West Wind.

These are both true.

Might not be called the Breeze and it might not act the same way,

A reasonable assumption if the Breeze exists on LOSAZ

but because Typheus supposedly controls it on LOWAS, it is probably true in the LOSAZ.

Not really! Both Typheuses didn't flood their worlds with oil. One Echidna rules a frozen world, the other a flooded world.

The waves in the shy kind of help emphasize that.

LOWAS has no waves in the sky. What's your point?

[unbeliever536]

LOSAZ has dunes, which implies some kind of wind. The question is whether it does anything other than be blowy and stuff. There is no evidence that the wind on LOSAZ does anything special the way the wind on LOWAS does; therefore there is no evidence that the LOSAZ consorts gave it some kind of special name like "the Gust". We have a great many planets where an element of the land's name was just environmental flavor, rather than a large part of its mythology; LOHAC had lots of clockwork, but all it seems to have done is get stood on.