Choice Asspects and Class-y Discussion V2.0

[Altum]

They did? I don't remember Equius doing any Void-y thing after he died. The only Zahhak I know who's done the Void-y thing would be Darkleer, and he wasn't a Heir. Or are making a joke about Gamzee's coverup? :O)

So anyway, looking at Andrew's last Q&A post, I'm thinking the Heir's "role" in the game would be to act as a sort of 'mission-taker'. As in, they take orders, and then they execute it. Like how the Seer guides others, the Heir takes on tasks that only they can do. Basically, if I could use an example from mythology, Hercules could be considered a Heir. With his PRODIGIOUS MANGRIT, he completed the 12 Labors. Aside from certain modern day characters from children's literature, Hercules was probably the only guy who could have accomplished those tasks. The same with John; no one else could have gotten to Skaia's core except him. Unless a godtier Jade could teleport chunks out of the planet, though I don't think she could do that (as a Witch, that'd be a bit.....morbid. And no FG has ever teleported anything into separate chunks, so I guess they're limited to teleporting the entire object).

Equius was given the important task of subduing Gamzee as well. Other characters (ie; Vriska) probably could have done it, but since he was just a not-yet-fully-realized Heir, he got 'smaller' tasks than John, I suppose.

I like this idea! And it fits into the idea of relating these classes to existing mythical frameworks, and also the idea that there are more axes/categories involved than the canonical active/passive.

Some classes have more dramatic, obvious powers than others; some are front-loaded or back-loaded. The Heir is a powerful, frontloaded class, which makes it ideal for a class like the Seer--no obvious showy powers upfront at all--the deploy to achieve things. Both are passive classes, but passive in different ways; they cooperate to help each other as teammates.

It also makes for a different, but equally effective, pairing from the Seer-Knight we've seen a lot of. Seers and Knights both seem able to function independently, but work better in tandem. Seers are strategic, while Knights are tactical; they can act on their own with ingenuity and planning, but seem to lack a bigger picture. Heirs are more like special forces to be deployed. The only time we ever see Equius not following Aradia around like a puppydog, he's on Nepeta's world, completely at loose ends. The Heirs NEED their friends.

One interesting thing is that classes that are both powerful AND active tend to be the "troublemaker" classes, it seems like. Princes, Thieves and Witches seem prone to create as many difficulties for the team as they solve, especially since they are reluctant team players in the first place. Although the same seems to be true for Bards--but then, because their powers are destructive, using them for/on others isn't necessarily a good thing. And as wild cards, while they aren't self-directed, they aren't really a part of any plans, either. It's an interesting solution to the problem of balance.

[Arcanum]

Muse: Uses X to help others.

Based on inferences made from Aranea when she revealed her title and powers to Terezi, we might already have that, in Sylph, who's powers might be "Assists others with x" and/or "Heals people using x." The assists power is consistent with Kanaya assisting Jade with the frog breeding and Aranea literally saying that she can help terezi see. The heals power coming from the same exchange with Aranea, where she offers to help terezi see, which would effectively heal her eyesight.

Calliope has been helping the alpha kids since like the beginning and this is trough her dreams of prospit, a striking aspect of space.

This can be explained by saying Calliope was like the Exile for all of the B2, and exiles do help out their player, in a way. An actual exile would simply ensure the ideas were planted in the players' minds originally. WV helped John realize his role by 'yelling' at him to do the windy thing, PM assisted John with making sure things got to the Pyxis and that he got his important deliveries, BQ/Snowman helped Terezi and Vriska exile Jack, CD ensured he was the one to make Sollux angry after waking up on Derse and DD got Aradia to "Make (Vriska) pay," making sure she ascended.

In the sense of completing a stable time loop, Calliope isn't exactly doing much of anything, but she is without a doubt helping the B2 kids a lot more than the B1 exiles.

[Majora787]

Passive classes are more about helping their teammates (+) and active classes are more about hindering enemies (-). Really simple actually.

That's not quite it either. You could have an active class that doesn't do anything to enemies at all (usually). The distinction is more that passive classes use their powers indirectly on/through other people. The Rogue is going to steal to give to others, and the Bard lets others destroy their aspect.

Active classes are much more direct and self-serving but accomplish the exact same essential thing as their counterparts. The Thief will steal but keep for themselves, and the Prince will destroy their aspect single-handedly without any involvement of their teammates in the process.

This can be seen in good (as in well defined) theories, like Heir(-) Knight(+). In this case, the active counterpart is protected by his power. The passive counterpart, however, is using their power to protect their allied.

[cardiacAtrophy]

That's not quite it either. You could have an active class that doesn't do anything to enemies at all (usually). The distinction is more that passive classes use their powers indirectly on/through other people. The Rogue is going to steal to give to others, and the Bard lets others destroy their aspect.

Active classes are much more direct and self-serving but accomplish the exact same essential thing as their counterparts. The Thief will steal but keep for themselves, and the Prince will destroy their aspect single-handedly without any involvement of their teammates in the process.

This can be seen in good (as in well defined) theories, like Heir(-) Knight(+). In this case, the active counterpart is protected by his power. The passive counterpart, however, is using their power to protect their allied.

Except Word of Huss, Heir is passive. (+)

[Majora787]

I fail to see any explicit statement that Heirs are a passive class. But I will read that FAQ thing again I suppose.

EDIT: Yeah looking at it, it says Witch is highly active and Seer is passive. That's it.

[Legendary]

I fail to see any explicit statement that Heirs are a passive class. But I will read that FAQ thing again I suppose.

EDIT: Yeah looking at it, it says Witch is highly active and Seer is passive. That's it.

It's not explicit, but it's highly inferred by the way he only uses Jade and Rose as examples of people not fitting their moons. If all four beta kids were the opposite class their moon would suggest, surely he'd note that?

[OrangeAipom]

Except Word of Huss, Heir is passive. (+)

No, Prospit is passive. But a different kind of passive. Dersites attack and Prospitians defend.

Though he is saying that Witches are active and Seers are passive because it took God Tier/Dreamself death for them to become that.

Knights are much more ambiguous since we haven't seen them in action in God Tier. However, we have seen what a Heir can do. Although John still has the passive demeanor and attitude of a Prospitian dreamer, his powers clearly are used to benefit himself. Active classes "exploit their aspect to benefit themselves" while passive classes "allow their aspect to benefit others." John, I think, allows his aspect to benefit himself. Except in Cascade where he's making tornados because yeah he's making a badass display and is more obviously "exploiting."

It would appear that class distinctions don't kick in until God Tier, since the Condesce doesn't steal life with her healing touch and Equius's void powers are determined by area of effect rather than intentional use. You could say God Tier paradoxically limits and strengthens power at the same time.

[cardiacAtrophy]

No, Prospit is passive. But a different kind of passive. Dersites attack and Prospitians defend.

Though he is saying that Witches are active and Seers are passive because it took God Tier/Dreamself death for them to become that.

Knights are much more ambiguous since we haven't seen them in action in God Tier. However, we have seen what a Heir can do. Although John still has the passive demeanor and attitude of a Prospitian dreamer, his powers clearly are used to benefit himself. Active classes "exploit their aspect to benefit themselves" while passive classes "allow their aspect to benefit others." John, I think, allows his aspect to benefit himself. Except in Cascade where he's making tornados because yeah he's making a badass display and is more obviously "exploiting."

It would appear that class distinctions don't kick in until God Tier, since the Condesce doesn't steal life with her healing touch and Equius's void powers are determined by area of effect rather than intentional use. You could say God Tier paradoxically limits and strengthens power at the same time.

John's aspect passively protected him.

John's active uses of his powers were to put out fires, both in a village, and all over one planet, and to help WV fly the car while he was searching for Rose.

His other uses included retrieving The Tumor for Rose, and initiating The Scratch for Dave.

I cannot think of a situation where he actively used his powers to benefit himself or hinder another. His active benefits were all for others' sakes, and his hindrances of Jack were passive.

[Altum]

No, Prospit is passive. But a different kind of passive. Dersites attack and Prospitians defend.

Though he is saying that Witches are active and Seers are passive because it took God Tier/Dreamself death for them to become that.

Knights are much more ambiguous since we haven't seen them in action in God Tier. However, we have seen what a Heir can do. Although John still has the passive demeanor and attitude of a Prospitian dreamer, his powers clearly are used to benefit himself. Active classes "exploit their aspect to benefit themselves" while passive classes "allow their aspect to benefit others." John, I think, allows his aspect to benefit himself. Except in Cascade where he's making tornados because yeah he's making a badass display and is more obviously "exploiting."

It would appear that class distinctions don't kick in until God Tier, since the Condesce doesn't steal life with her healing touch and Equius's void powers are determined by area of effect rather than intentional use. You could say God Tier paradoxically limits and strengthens power at the same time.

But the whole reasoning behind that answer was that the two kinds of active/passive are not unrelated. Andrew also specifically use that answer to point out John as someone who is constantly being sent on jobs by Rose, trolls, Exiles, salamanders and other random entities, and uses it to make the point that active players set their own agendas, while passive players are more likely to be other-driven.

John's uses of his powers are *dramatic* and *powerful*, but they aren't self-driven or for his own benefit; they are at the behest of and for the benefit of other people.

Jade and John had more passive roles through most of that, players who were “acted upon” by other players and circumstances. John was always being led around by trolls this way and that, drifting around wherever the wind took him.

Then he goes on to talk about how Jade turns out to be actually active, and doesn't mention John at all, ever again. Heir is passive.

[The_Codfish]

the Condesce doesn't steal life with her healing touch

She steals life. Or she steals WITH life. She took the Psiioniic's "death" away from him when she turned him into the Helmsman.

There's also Darkleer's presence "voiding" out the sight of beings like Doc Scratch. What with how it's been revealed that the ancestors don't have the same Class as the current Troll players, the "Void aura" (which sounds so cheesy) around Equius' home was likely from Darkleer. So it wasn't Equius' presence protecting Vriska from being discovered by Doc Scratch, but Darkleer's lingering power (Which must have been "activated" upon his exile; like how John used the Wind-y thing before he godtiered, players seem to need a trigger of some sort to activate their powers before godtiering. For Roxy, it was being sober.) which persisted even after he died.

As for defining what active and passive are, I've always thought of them as being "narrow" and "wide" projections. Active players are basically precise tools used for specific things while Passive players would basically act as a "boost" (whether positive or negative), either for others or for their self. As in, the "boost" wouldn't be as "noticeable"-ish as an Active player's contributions at first; it'd be something accumulated over time before the payoff is given. At least, that's how I see things.

[Altum]

She steals life. Or she steals WITH life. She took the Psiioniic's "death" away from him when she turned him into the Helmsman.

Additionally, this falls under Andrew saying

Passive/active classes...seem to suggest tendencies rather than absolute capabilities. Like there isn’t a rule that says a passive class could never use an offensive technique.

The Condesce is the reverse, using a healing technique for a selfish, "active" purpose. We KNOW that the Condesce has learned to push the envelope of what she's capable of, over her long long life. The active/passive distinctions are as much personality descriptions as legit "power limitations"; it's hard to imagine the Condesce healing anyone for a reason that ISN'T selfish.

[The_Codfish]

Uh, just wanted to say that I was talking about her 'nature'. As a Thief of Life, she stole with Life.

Also need to say that the Condesce didn't heal, she just extended the Helmsman's life. Which was a natural ability of her caste. So, while you could look at it as being Witch-y (ability to extend others life), you can also look at it as being a Thief-y thing. It accommodates both of the Condesce/Meenah and Feferi's roles.

[tentativeGeekery]

The Condesce is definitely a Witch, just like Feferi. Not only is one of her pseudonyms the Batterwitch, her ability to extend the life of the Psiioniic/Helmsman is definitely a Witch power. It's her Pre-Scratch Version, Meenah, who is a different class (Thief).

So clearly, the way the Scratch changed the parameters of the Troll session was give the players different classes, aside from the changes made through Doc Scratch's influence.

[The_Codfish]

her ability to extend the life of the Psiioniic/Helmsman is definitely a Witch power

Is a fuchsia caste power (or possibly biologic tinkering, it's a bit vague). The only Ancestor who actually ever used their "Class/Aspect" powers was Darkleer.

The Scratch did not give players different characters. In fact, Rose said that the only thing Skaia was capable of doing in the case of a Scratch was to make sure the players got to their planet properly. They are still the same people. Skaia didn't do anything to change them. The Scratch didn't either; it was purely a temporal effect. That's not to say the Condesce is unable to develop Witch-like powers. In fact, we've already seen a case where a player develops powers which aren't for their Class/Aspect. Guess who.

But the Condesce is not a Witch. The fact that one of her monikers is the Batterwitch means nothing. Eridan called Rose a wwitch. Doesn't mean she was one. She is not a Witch of Life until she actually displays a power that only a Witch of Life would be capable of, such as healing a wound.

And you don't really understand what I was talking about, so I think I'll just say it again; it's her nature I was talking about. That is to say, she was still acting according to her role as the Thief of Life.

[Tayo23]

Yeah, she wasn't stealing his life, she was stealing his life.

I can't really think of a better way to sum that up.

[cardiacAtrophy]

Is a fuchsia caste power (or possibly biologic tinkering, it's a bit vague). The only Ancestor who actually ever used their "Class/Aspect" powers was Darkleer.

The Scratch did not give players different characters. In fact, Rose said that the only thing Skaia was capable of doing in the case of a Scratch was to make sure the players got to their planet properly. They are still the same people. Skaia didn't do anything to change them. The Scratch didn't either; it was purely a temporal effect. That's not to say the Condesce is unable to develop Witch-like powers. In fact, we've already seen a case where a player develops powers which aren't for their Class/Aspect. Guess who.

But the Condesce is not a Witch. The fact that one of her monikers is the Batterwitch means nothing. Eridan called Rose a wwitch. Doesn't mean she was one. She is not a Witch of Life until she actually displays a power that only a Witch of Life would be capable of, such as healing a wound.

And you don't really understand what I was talking about, so I think I'll just say it again; it's her nature I was talking about. That is to say, she was still acting according to her role as the Thief of Life.

But so far, the only powers we've seen Witches have is the ability to expand, contract, and move things.

And she expanded Helmsman's life to match her own.

While I agree she stole his life by extending his life, Healing someone is not a witch power. If anything, it's a sylph power.

[Altum]

But so far, the only powers we've seen Witches have is the ability to expand, contract, and move things.

That was a Witch of Space. Growth is Space.

While I agree she stole his life by extending his life, Healing someone is not a witch power. If anything, it's a sylph power.

While we don't know the operative verb of Witches, we do know a Witch of Life can heal, because dead AU Feferi did it. Healing is a Life thing generally, though, I would imagine.

[Tayo23]

I think Thief and Rogues are less "stealing" classes and more like "redistributing" classes.

Thieves GENERALLY steal for themselves, but can also give to others, Rogues just sort of do it accidentally, I think.

[Majora787]

I think Thief and Rogues are less "stealing" classes and more like "redistributing" classes.

Thieves GENERALLY steal for themselves, but can also give to others, Rogues just sort of do it accidentally, I think.

If that were the case, the only difference between a Thief and a Rogue is that Rogues can't control their own power. And I don't think that could or would actually be the case. Even though, I could see an unascended rogue be unable to control who they take from and who they give to... OR an unascended Thief be unable to control who they steal from. I think the point is, the Thief, being active, can't give to others... and the Rogue, being passive, can't keep for themselves.

And I'm just going to say, the entire notion of John being protected by the breeze is what would theoretically make the Heir active.

I think there's some confusion here, considering the difference isn't how the power is used... It's how the power works. If Eridan went out and used his hope powers to aid his teammates, this wouldn't suddenly make him a passive role. It'd make him an active role used passively.

[cardiacAtrophy]

If that were the case, the only difference between a Thief and a Rogue is that Rogues can't control their own power. And I don't think that could or would actually be the case. Even though, I could see an unascended rogue be unable to control who they take from and who they give to... OR an unascended Thief be unable to control who they steal from. I think the point is, the Thief, being active, can't give to others... and the Rogue, being passive, can't keep for themselves.

And I'm just going to say, the entire notion of John being protected by the breeze is what would theoretically make the Heir active.

I think there's some confusion here, considering the difference isn't how the power is used... It's how the power works. If Eridan went out and used his hope powers to aid his teammates, this wouldn't suddenly make him a passive role. It'd make him an active role used passively.

But that may not be an Heir power. It may be a breath thing. Just as Life involves healing, and Space involves growth, Breath could involve routing trouble, or protection, or even just serendipitous occourences.

[Majora787]

Aspects don't define how they're used though. They're the thing that is being manipulated. How they're used is determined by the class, and what's done with them is determined by the person.

This would be like Rage involving murdering your friends. Or Mind involving dishing out just deaths. Or Time involving self-prototyping. They're not *that* complicated.

And really, Life doesn't have to involve healing when paired with the right class. Same with Space, really.

[Arcanum]

The Condesce is definitely a Witch, just like Feferi. Not only is one of her pseudonyms the Batterwitch, her ability to extend the life of the Psiioniic/Helmsman is definitely a Witch power. It's her Pre-Scratch Version, Meenah, who is a different class (Thief).

So clearly, the way the Scratch changed the parameters of the Troll session was give the players different classes, aside from the changes made through Doc Scratch's influence.

I doubt Scratch had the power to change a class. From what we've seen, post-scratch ancestors seem to have some semblence of their powers in their original iterations, pre-scratch. Be it their class, their aspect, or the whole title. B2 Dave's apartment lasting 400 years and all the supplies lasting that long (moved through Time), B2 Rose having the foresight to build a house that accepts modular changes, so that it would be incorporated into the Chess Slums (Seer of Light powers). B2 Jade was described as a Witch, and B2 John was the Heir to CrockerCorp (as Jade ran away and started the rival company, and he stayed behind). Pre-scratch, not as prevalent. Nanna came back to Life as a Sprite, Mom went Rogue shortly after arriving in the Medium, Bro destroyed (Princes destroy) the meteor, and Grandpa had the potential (description of a Page) to be a Tier 2 prototyping.

Mindfang had all of the treasure, and Light's double is "Fortune," which can be interpreted as wealth, in a sense. Similarly, Darkleer was also a Hero of Void, and his lingered so Mindfang could hide the cueball from Scratch. The Summoner, as the Hero of Breath, could fly because of his wings. The Handmaid/Demoness traveled through Time (at the behest of her Boss, English). The Signless has visions of his previous iteration and how the hemospectrum was different in A1, hinting towards him being a Seer of Blood. The Helmsman was Doomed after he was captured and enlisted as the battery for the Flagship. The Disciple had a relationship that transcended the quadrants (if soul:heart as fortune:light, then love:heart as sight:light). The Highblood did not like Dualscar's humor when turning in Mindfang (A1 Dualscar = Bard of Hope???), and he himself let his Rage rule over the land dwellers. And the Condesce herself as a hero of life, so with her powers she extended the Helmsman's life until it was cut short in the Vast Glub.

Anyways, you guys have to remember that two completely different aspects can become similar, depending on the class. A Prince of Life and a Witch of Doom could have similar powers (doom:death, and witches seem to manipulate X), despite Doom and Life being opposite aspects.

And for Breath's 'double' (like how Light = Fortune), I'd like to posit that it is "fate." "I'm going wherever the breeze takes me."

Also, I like to think that each Aspect has a "related" aspect with which there are similarities (i think the best canon example might be Light and Mind, as Light could also mean knowledge, and Mind is the power the mind has over outcomes. Possibly also Breath and Doom, if Breath could mean Fate, Doom can mean predestination. Sollux's visions of the future are the whole basis for that argument, however), a "literal opposite" where you take the aspect and take it literally (Hope and Doom being a good example) and a "metaphorical opposite" where you take what the aspect could mean (Light possibly including "knowledge" and void including "obfuscation of knowledge")

[Doc Scratch]

It seems Witch has the power to change aspect of the Aspect, like Feferi lengthening WV's life by healing him and Jade shrinking the planets. It has to do with manipulating something to reach a goal with the Aspect no matter what the means. Theoretically, a Witch of Void could lengthen the amount of time a secret remains that way by doing ANYTHING to make it happen, like sending it into an undetectable void, killing those who know, diverting the who are close to finding it, etc. A Witch's powers are mainly for reaching the end, no matter the means. Speaking of which, the ends vs. the means maybe part of what determines the -/+ of the role.

[The_Codfish]

And I'm just going to say, the entire notion of John being protected by the breeze is what would theoretically make the Heir active.

You misunderstand what passive means. Active is concentrated more on the self while passive is a bit wider. If we're going with "The Heir uses his Aspect to protect himself", that would be more of a description for an Active class. A Passive class would be "uses his Aspect to protect others".

It seems Witch has the power to change aspect of the Aspect

Only if you look at it that way, and in Feferi's case, it's a bit of a stretch (*wink*). Instead of using geometric terms to describe their ability, it'd be better to say Witches can 'manipulate' their Aspect.

[Doc Scratch]

You misunderstand what passive means. Active is concentrated more on the self while passive is a bit wider. If we're going with "The Heir uses his Aspect to protect himself", that would be more of a description for an Active class. A Passive class would be "uses his Aspect to protect others".

However, it may also be passive in the literal sense, as in the breeze acts to protect John without him wanting to do so.