Choice Asspects and Class-y Discussion V2.0

[Majora787]

You misunderstand what passive means. Active is concentrated more on the self while passive is a bit wider. If we're going with "The Heir uses his Aspect to protect himself", that would be more of a description for an Active class. A Passive class would be "uses his Aspect to protect others".

... How does that contradict my statement whatsoever? Your power protecting you does not apply to others in any way whatsoever, so that would make it active in nature.

[Greyscale]

Your power protecting you does not apply to others in any way whatsoever

The Breeze has served others without John's explicit intent though
The entire mailing system on John's planet for example
The way it got that hat to Nannasprite for another

[The_Codfish]

Huh, I thought you said passive.

Greyscale: That was the Breeze, but it wasn't John using it.

[Greyscale]

Greyscale: That was the Breeze, but it wasn't John using it.

That's sort of the main idea behind John's class being passive

The Breeze as an entity only exists because John does

No other character who has demonstrated their power have their aspect manifest as an independent entity with its own will, with the possible exception of the Bard, another passive class

[The_Codfish]

Well, that's actually a nice point. Without really being able to compare with anyone (*cough*Tavros*cough*), it's reasonable to assume the Breeze only acts as it did with an Heir.

[unbeliever536]

Aspects don't define how they're used though. They're the thing that is being manipulated. How they're used is determined by the class, and what's done with them is determined by the person.

This would be like Rage involving murdering your friends. Or Mind involving dishing out just deaths. Or Time involving self-prototyping. They're not *that* complicated.

And really, Life doesn't have to involve healing when paired with the right class. Same with Space, really.

I'm just gonna contradict this in a "what if" sort of way...

We know that Class has a big impact on how a player's powers manifest, but Aspect, so far, seems to be largely "flavor" from a gameplay perspective. We know that Space deals in frogs, but everything else seems to be "different ways to be a [class]". I propose that each Aspect has a "party role" for which it is designed and that its powers will suit best. Below, I will outline the roles I suspect for the Aspects we know. If this theory is true, the sgrub session and events following from it can be interpreted through the lense that, for the most part, the trolls are good at their Classes but bad at their Aspects (hence why they were able to power through the game but didn't really understand Denizens). There are a few exceptions where trolls ranged from competent to good with their Aspects, but on the whole they didn't really understand them.

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In no particular order:

Space: This is pretty easy. Space's role is to prepare the Genisis Frog. It is a critical role.

Time: Again, relatively simple. Time's role is to get rid of beta timelines, keeping the Alpha on course largely from without. It is a critical role.

Light: I theorize that the Light aspect's role is to prevent beta timelines from occurring or limit their occurrence, keeping the Alpha on course largely from within. A good Light player assists the Time player by limiting how much the Time player has to work, but a Light player cannot replace a Time player because if the Light player screws up, there is no way to fix it. A Light player's role may manifest as stubbornness or resistance to doubt.

Life: Life's role seems to be keeping the team alive (though not precisely healing). The two Life players we have met whose sessions are complete (that is, Feferi and Meenah) both negotiated with the HorrorTerrors to create an afterlife specifically for the players in their session when it became clear that there was no way to keep them all fully alive. Feferi also appears to demonstrate an instinctive knowledge of corpsmouching. It's possible that she received the information from an offscreen sprite, but I propose that she knows instinctively what to do because of her Aspect. Jane hasn't done much keeping-alive, but it could be argued that she took the shot of Miles that would have killed Dirk.

Breath: Breath seems to be about acquiring allies for the team. John convinces the kids to befriend the trolls. He also easily puts together a team to deliver the Tumor while he looks for his father. Tavros's Communion ability got him an army of imps, and brought in the lusi to fight the Black King (I think? Does anyone have a reference for the lusi thing?). Critically, John's denizen is the first denizen who was willing to help the party.

Void: I'm not sure. Equius served as a temporary leader for half the team, and he was a solid subordinate to Karkat (he did, after all, Seek the Highb100d), so Void could just be a general purpose Aspect. That doesn't really make sense in this scheme, though, and we don't really know what he did in-session. Given the effectiveness of Roxy's veil (assuming it is Roxy's, as it probably is), Void could involve limiting outside influence on the session, in which case Equius failed, since he didn't stop Doc Scratch from causing the FLARP revenge clusterfuck.

Heart: Not sure here either. Nepeta didn't do a lot in session. However, we do know that she asked about Aradia when she went missing, and found Equius again when he went off to look for Gamzee. Cross-reference this with Dirk, who has been keeping everyone on track and where they're supposed to be, and also has (or had) a piece of himself with both Jake and Jane. Given this, Heart may act as sort of a "control center", keeping everyone in touch with everyone else and passing information between scattered players.

Doom: Sollux seems to have acted as a mission finder for the troll session. He programmed sgrub from the ruins Aradia found, then spent most of his time during the session on Prospit watching the clouds. He didn't do a lot on the meteor, but by then he had explicitly checked out (session over, no more jobs to do).

Mind: Consider how Terezi acts with both Dave and Karkat. When they are under stress, she talks to them and makes them relax, allowing them to refocus and get back to the mission at hand. This leads me to believe that Mind is a sort of "therapist". The Mind player is in charge of keeping individual team members from being torn apart by the stress of the game so they can complete their jobs.

Blood: Blood is, I think, somewhat similar in role to Mind. Throughout the game, the team completely ignores Karkat's memo board except when they need one thing: relationship advice. Karkat's board is where they come to resolve all of their interpersonal issues. Karkat also mediates between Jade and Jadesprite, and attempts to deal with human/troll issues. Blood deals with interpersonal problems, preventing the team from tearing itself apart. Blood and Mind assist each other in a manner similar to Light and Time, but both are noncritical Aspects.

Hope: Nope. No clue. We haven't seen enough of Jake for me to form an assessment of what he does, and Eridan seems to have just absolutely sucked at doing anything other than blowing up angels.

Rage: Rage looks to be an enforcer. When other players go off the rails, the Hero of Rage is there to kick them back on (or off a cliff, in the case of a destructive Rage aspect like Gamzee). When Eridan goes wild, Gamzee brings him to Kanaya to be killed. When Vriska gets set up to toss the entire party into a beta timeline, Gamzee engineers her death.

[Arcanum]

So it's 12:30, and its about time I word dumped before I fall asleep. A lot of shit involving aspects and pairings.

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Heir(+)/Knight(-)
From what we've seen with John, he never used the Windy Thing to benefit himself, but it seemed to follow him (the Breeze conveniently saving the Salamander village, the windy thing saving the LOWAS - and by extension, John) until he ascended, when he gained tool-like control of Breath (drilling a hole to retrieve the Tumor), and the ability to indirectly weaponize Breath (using the wind to kick up lava tornadoes during Cascade). Prior to ascension, an Heir's aspect seems to protect or surround them, as shown with both Heirs (Equius 'inherited' the void from Darkleer, who was the Hero of Void in A1, and it surrounded the area around his hive, creating one of the dark spots Scratch couldnt see). So, the description of the class would be "Indirectly weaponizes X" and "Utilizes X as a tool." Who knows what Equius could've done as a fully realized Heir of Void, or what he did before, since he got so little screentime in Hivebent (he did get more on the meteor, but that's not saying much...). Heirs also seem to come into their powers earlier than any other class (Time isn't a class, but it appears that a Time player will tend to come back from a Doomed timeline and drop off some cool gear and make sure they don't fuck up the timeline, and they'll most likely get their hands on time-based stuff). Most players didn't seem to realize their role until they get closer to the top of their echeladders, or even until after ascending. John was doing the Windy thing possibly as early as [s] ==>, but wasn't until the Breeze saved the village that his powers seemed to truly manifest, while Rose didn't show any notable examples of doing a Light-y thing until she ascended to the Seer of Light.
Knights, as the active counterpart to Heirs, seem to be more combat oriented, as a Knight would be regardless. As shown in his fight with Jack, Dave seemed to utilize his time powers to fight Jack with time instances of himself, until his waking self's death. However, because of his upbringing, that could just be flash stepping, like Bro/Dirk. Karkat successfully brought his team together (somewhat) competently and managed to lead them to defeating the Black King. If Blood is likened to "Relationships," then as the Knight of Blood, maybe he would've been like a general leading his troops from the front lines (and as such, an Heir of Blood would be the general leading his troops from the relative safety of a bunker or command center). We haven't seen Dave in 'real' combat since his ascension (i don't count the spat with Karkat or the issue with Meenah while Aranea went to get Jake), but running off the Heir description, it would be as simple as "Directly weaponizes X" and "Fights using X" (which is the same thing ha ha).

Mage (-)
Since we know so little about Sollux's class or aspect, we are forced to speculate. It is my headcanon that Mages are the majyyk user class, and that they "magically use x," but thats dumb and I'm sure someone could come up with a better description. In that sense, I could say a Mage "manipulates X," like a Witch, making Mage a male-exclusive manipulator, and Witch a female-exclusive manipulator. If you base a Mage's power on Sollux's visions of Doom for himself and his friends, you could say their passive counterpart would be Seer, but exactly how his would be active is beyond me at this point, unless Mage would simply be a Male Seer (which hasn't been stated to be exclusively or typically female, but has been shown thus far as only female seers. Remember, rogue and thief were stated by Calliope to be usually female, but not always, and all examples of Thieves and Rogues have been female), but in that case we seem to be unbalanced in +/- roles.

Sylph(+)/Witch(-)
We've also seen little of Sylphs, as the only realized Sylph has been Aranea, and she gave us a good idea on what they do. It appears that Sylphs can "Help others using X" and/or "Heal using X." Kanaya showed the Helper tendency in the Sylph class by assisting Jade breed the Genesis Frog, and Aranea offered to "Help (Terezi) see (Light)." The same conversation between Aranea & Terezi about helping her see again can mean that she can literally heal her eyes, making Sylph into a "White Mage" class, which would be an interesting power for a Sylph of Time.
Witches, however, were pretty clear in what they do, as a manipulator class. Jade changed the size of giant objects and the Doomed GT Feferi was able to manipulate WV back to a state of having Life, making her particular combination of Class and Aspect be another White Mage setup. The description here seems to be "Helps self using X" (Jade fulfilling her promise to Echidna) and "Manipulates X."

Seer (+)
I left this one open for an active because Mage is a possibility for Seers, and also because if not the Mage, there aren't really any other good active classes we know about to be a counterpart for Seer. Seers seem pretty straightforward, being "Sees an outcome using X." As the Seer of Light, Rose literally charted a path through the infinite darkness using her Light powers, and also used her powers to chart the most favorable path, fortune being a Double for Light. Terezi, looking into the vortices, saw the outcome of if Vriska left, and acted based on that vortice.

Rogue(+)/Thief(-)
Canon, look here

Bard(+)/Prince(-)
Also canon

Page(+?)/Maid(-?)
We know very little about either of these classes, as we've seen Aradia use her Maid of Time powers exactly once (when she trapped Jack in a particular instant of Time, strong majyyks to protect herself), and we seen Jane use her Maid of Life powers exactly once (when she subconsciously healed herself after being stabbed by Jack), and we've seen precisely jack squat regarding Pages, aside from Tavros being bossed around a lot by basically everyone, though that can be attributed to him being a very passive person by nature. Jake, on the other hand, is a very active individual. Pages, however, seem to be a class that doesn't manifest powers until later, either when they reach the top of their ladders or after ascension, as hinted by the splinter of Dirk residing in Jake's head by saying Pages have a lot of potential. I can't think of a good description for either, at least until we see more of Jake/Tavros and Jane/Aradia.

"Lord"/Unnamed Master Active Class (very -)
The mysterious class that uu has been assigned. I've left my thoughts elsewhere in this topic, but I'll simplify it into "Dominion over X" and the ability to use, to some extent, the powers of all other Active classes. Dominion would mean he would have almost, if not total control over the aspect, in the sense the Greek god Morpheus has control over dreams. A Lord would be the closest approximation to a god in the context of the game, moreso than any other class. Also, a Thief of Light and a Lord of Light would both be able to steal Light, but a Thief would be more effective/efficient/better at it than the Lord.

Muse (very +)
I didn't pair Muse and Lord since they didn't seem to be counterparts, aside from both being Master classes. Also found somewhere earlier in this thread, Muses would "Inspire X in others," and have powers of passive classes, to a lesser extent. Inspire means to grant the temporary use of the Muse's aspect to an ally. Take a Muse of Space and a Rogue of Void: if Calliope 'Inspired' Roxy, Roxy would have powers of both Rogue of Void and a Rogue of Space. And if a Muse Inspired a player with the same Aspect, the player's scope would be increased (example: Seer + Muse of Light = farther foresight into the most favorable outcome?)

Ancestors:
Ancestors seem to have some semblance of their powers, despite not being a player themselves. This manifests as either their title alone (in B1, Mom went Rogue shortly after arriving on LOLAR; in B2, an allusion was made regarding Jade being a Witch), their aspect only (in A2, Condy extending the Helmsman's Life, though it can be argued thats a power related to having tyrian blood; in B1, Jane coming back to Life as a Sprite; in B2, Dave moving his apartment's position in Time so that Dirk would have a place to live and have supplies 400 years later), or their full title (in A2, the Signless saw visions of his comrades in the pre-scratch incarnation of that universe, where the hemospectrum was different. Scratch speculated that it was due to his mutant blood, but I speculate that it's because in A1, Signless might've been a Seer of Blood; in B2, Rose had the foresight to make a house that could be incorporated into a modular design, so that Roxy could hide in the Chessboard Slum. Seer of Light powers). Using this logic, we can say for sure that the A1 players have the same aspects as their A2 counterparts, as the A2 ancestors matched their descendants' aspects in one way or another (the exception being the Dolorosa, I can't make a parallel with her to Space).

Aspects:
An Aspect can be taken to mean many things, as especially shown by Light, one of the most expanded on Aspects. I also believe that an ascended Hero can utilize their Aspect in whatever interpretation as dictated by the class, but a certain interpretation would be dumb/better to use than the previous interpretation. Like Rose can already see, so the 'sight' interpretation of her Aspect is redundant, but seeing the most favorable outcome is useful.

Space means growth and physical objects, and is a pretty straightforward Aspect.
Time is Time. Probably the most straightforward Aspect. Could go hand in hand with predestination and fate, as Time players are there to keep the timeline on track, and to have a planet where the device used to start the Scratch is located.
Light can mean sight (Vriska 'stealing' Terezi's eyesight; Aranea offering to heal it later), fortune (Vriska stealing all of the luck, Rose seeing things that results in the most favorable outcome, Mindfang having all the treasure), and possibly knowledge (as shown when Rose is studying up on their session, and while she is compiling the tome on the meteor).
Breath often literally means wind, that's pretty straightforward. Breath could also go with fate (the line "I'm going where the breeze takes me" is my whole basis for that argument).
Life is another straightforward Aspect, as it refers to life. Bluh.
Doom is one of the Aspects we know next to nothing about, but has been said to be the opposite of Life, in that Doom can mean Death.
Blood is another Aspect we know little about, but its suspected it's either a literal blood power like on the anime masterpiece that is Deadman Wonderland, or control over relationships.
Mind seems to refer to the power a choice has over a timeline, not dissimilar to the theory that for every choice we make, there is an alternate universe where we made a different choice. Also seems to have connections to a 'just' death, as Redglare was a legislacerator and Terezi wished to be one as well, and she killed Vriska, causing her to die a permanent Just Death. Also seems to be able to be able to interact with, in a way, with 'thought-forms' (Terezi was the only one other than Jake that was aware of the splinter of Dirk in the dream bubble).
Hope we know little about, but a possible connection could be 'religion' or 'faith,' as posited by someone on these forums.
Heart has been described as Soul by Calliope, and a mark of a Hero of Heart is leading a splinted life. Dirk could get a splinter of himself into Jake's head, which would manifest during a dream bubble visit and then separate, staying behind for the Hero of Mind to whisper to. It could also literally mean love, which would mean Nepeta could take all the love and distribute it to her friends (evenly). Or just take Eridan's love and make him loveless and give all that love to others. That explains why hes forevver alone.
Void is explained in canon as the obfuscation of knowledge, as well as darkness and the power to make dark spots in the vision of entities with omniscience or those with a 'higher level of seeing,' such as watching through the kids through the Trollian interface.
Rage is the power over the anger and emotions running deep within a person, or hidden within. Gamzee, as the Bard of Rage, allowed everyone else's natural rage get the better of them and start killing sprees, even in himself, leaving only 5 trolls alive (and 1 in a state of half-death).

Most of this is common knowledge i cant believe i spent 2.5 hours typing this on my phone. God tiers and their powers are my second favorite part of Homestuck (the first being the S***B itself, despite God Tiers being a construct within S***B?? Ha ha im going to sleep now).

[Legendary]

In response, I'd like to argue that rather than Knight/Heir and Maid/Page, that it's Knight/Page and Maid/Heir. We don't know much about what Pages do, but of the classes that have used Aspecty Things, they have been EXCLUSIVELY Heir and Maid. It even forms a nice pairing. Heirs inherit. Their aspect is theirs and it does all sorts of cool stuff in the background. Maids ARE inherited. They belong to their aspect and do things for it in the background. Plus, both sets of Heir/Maid are associated: Equius and Aradia (with Aradia serving Equius); John and Jane (where her remains were cooperative and assisted him while his remains were ripped from her).

I'm not entirely sure how the verb for Knight and Page would work, but they both seem to give their aspect to others; Knights weaponizing and giving hell to the enemies, Pages giving their aspects to friends for help (Tavros trying to "Breath" Vriska in that kiss scene).

[Tayo23]

Maybe Maids sacrifice/surrender/lose their aspect in some way?

Jane is surrendering her life in place of Dirk's, Aradia spent all of her time cleaning up after everybody else.

[cardiacAtrophy]

Aspects don't define how they're used though. They're the thing that is being manipulated. How they're used is determined by the class, and what's done with them is determined by the person.

This would be like Rage involving murdering your friends. Or Mind involving dishing out just deaths. Or Time involving self-prototyping. They're not *that* complicated.

And really, Life doesn't have to involve healing when paired with the right class. Same with Space, really.

Okay, we can't have people say "Witches don't make things grow, shrink, and move that's a space power," then come back and say "Aspects don't determine that, class does."


It's really fucking annoying.

[Majora787]

That's sort of the main idea behind John's class being passive

The Breeze as an entity only exists because John does

No other character who has demonstrated their power have their aspect manifest as an independent entity with its own will, with the possible exception of the Bard, another passive class

Hasn't it been implied that every aspect has its sort of independent entity? Aradia mentioned time gods or something similar, and Bards supposedly act by the whim of their aspect itself... I don't know. Implications are weird to work with. I always figured that the breeze was independent of John on his planet because it is the planet of a hero of breath who is in theory protected by the breeze as if it is its own thing.

EDIT 1: I don't think aspects existing externally is actually a thing exclusive to passive classes, but it is a thing I guess. Even though, I still maintain that how the breeze gets used, regardless of whether or not it is an external thing, is what makes it active or passive.

EDIT 2: I said that Space doesn't make things grow, shrink, or move. And then I said class determine the power's specifics. Space is what's being manipulated, not the action being taken. And there's no need to get like that at all. It allegedly involves mass and velocity, but it doesn't have to do with growing/shrinking/moving. That's something that is done by the class to the aspect.

[Greyscale]

Hasn't it been implied that every aspect has its sort of independent entity?

Yeah. But we never see it like that with any of the active classes. For Thieves the aspect is like an rpg item that you can use after taking it away from someone. For Princes it's an aspect of someone to aim at, or an aspect of yourself to use.

And also, we never see an Heir have any of those aspects, and similarly, there's never been a The Light or The Mind or The Blood, that exists in the same way as The Breeze does where its actions are tailored to help you and your allies and deter your enemies without even your express knowledge of it.

Aradia mentioned time gods or something similar, and Bards supposedly act by the whim of their aspect itself... I don't know.

Aradia could just be speaking metaphorically to mean that The Future Can Not Be Changed, talking of Time as a definite set of rules that can't be broken in the same way you can't break physics. Or maybe she's speaking primarily from the perspective of a Maid (like yeah she's explaining it to a Knight but she could still be talking from her personal perspective), who is potentially a passive class too. And we already know for sure that Bards are passive, too, explicitly working "with" their aspect.

So basically, it could be a passive thing. But even then, there isn't a The Time or The Rage as a conscious entity. Just as a set of rules which operates on its own and the players have to work with it somehow. Gamzee still has to set up a situation for Rage to destroy things in the same way someone sets up dominoes to use gravity (Jane's sprite can't make itself explode unless Gamzee throws two people who hate each other in it), and Aradia almost has to negotiate with Time to protect her friends. Neither of those aspects ever went out of its way to help them or their allies like an actual entity with its own willpower.

I always figured that the breeze was independent of John on his planet because it is the planet of a hero of breath who is in theory protected by the breeze as if it is its own thing.

But the Breeze acted independently on Skaia while John was there too, so.

[unbeliever536]

Hasn't it been implied that every aspect has its sort of independent entity? Aradia mentioned time gods or something similar, and Bards supposedly act by the whim of their aspect itself... I don't know. Implications are weird to work with. I always figured that the breeze was independent of John on his planet because it is the planet of a hero of breath who is in theory protected by the breeze as if it is its own thing.

The Breeze is talked about by the salamanders like it's an independent enemy, but John mostly just considers it random convenient gusts of wind, and the comic implies that it's a passive (in the sense that it requires no activation) power that John has. Besides, Terezi is very clear that she's looking at the consequences of what goes on in your mind, and Vriska, though she claims to have "All the Luck", stole it from opponents, not from some warehouse where The Dice or whatever were keeping it.

[Majora787]

I still don't think whether the aspect itself is passive or active has any actual bearing on whether or not the class is active or passive. But shrug.

I mean I think if a prince of breath used a passively-existing breeze to cut his foes to ribbons, that wouldn't necessarily make him passive...

[The_Codfish]

Anyway, talking about how the Breeze helped the Salamanders in the parcel-pyxes system, it's always been like that for them since before John entered. Then there's also how the Salamanders talk about Typheus 'getting angry' when someone other than him commands the Breeze.

What with how it's recently been revealed that Denizens are actually supposed to 'help' the Players, it'd be reasonable to say that Typheus may have actually been helping John in all those instances of the Breeze suddenly coming to help him, such as when the Salamander village was burning (or bringing stuff to people, like Dad and Nanna). That would mean the first instance of John using his powers would be when his planet was enveloped in Bec Noir's Green Something.

[Greyscale]

I still don't think whether the aspect itself is passive or active has any actual bearing on whether or not the class is active or passive.

No one said the aspect itself is passive or active. I'm pretty sure nobody did, anyway. Just that The Breeze is a manifestation of an aspect that exists because of a passive class, specifically the Heir, so it acts passively.

It's not like all Breath players have The Breeze. There was no indication that Tavros did, at least. A Prince of Breath would just use regular non-sentient wind. He wouldn't use a "passively-existing Breeze" because he wouldn't have The Breeze, he'd have his own Breath powers. That's what I think anyway.

[The_Codfish]

Tavros really isn't a good example of a Breath player actually using his powers. Nor are most of the Trolls. They have 'traits' relating to their role, but for the most part, they never actually used their 'abilities'.

[Greyscale]

Weren't you just asserting that the Breeze would have always existed and that any independent action it does that could be interpreted as a part of a passive class could probably be Typheus's influence instead?

Because then it wouldn't matter if Tavros never used his powers, the Breeze would still be there, controlled by his Typheus. But even when Tavros came close to using his powers when he tried to kiss Vriska, it came from within (his mouth), not without (like what John always does).

[unbeliever536]

What with how it's recently been revealed that Denizens are actually supposed to 'help' the Players, it'd be reasonable to say that Typheus may have actually been helping John in all those instances of the Breeze suddenly coming to help him, such as when the Salamander village was burning (or bringing stuff to people, like Dad and Nanna). That would mean the first instance of John using his powers would be when his planet was enveloped in Bec Noir's Green Something.

Actually, the Breeze continues to help John through no effort on his part after he leaves LOWAS.

Also: I'm not trying to assert that the Breeze makes Heir a passive class (I do believe Heir is passive, but that is more related to how John behaves than how the Breeze does), all I'm saying is that the Breeze appears to be a constant benefit that is applied to John at all times, making it a "passive" power in a more generic gaming sense. John also has powers that aren't passive in that sense, like flying and giant cyclones and stuff.

[The_Codfish]

Weren't you just asserting that the Breeze would have always existed and that any independent action it does that could be interpreted as a part of a passive class could probably be Typheus's influence instead?

Because then it wouldn't matter if Tavros never used his powers, the Breeze would still be there, controlled by his Typheus. But even when Tavros came close to using his powers when he tried to kiss Vriska, it came from within (his mouth), not without (like what John always does).

Two points here. We never really saw much of Tavros' land, except for two instances: When he entered, and when he was doing a puzzle in a temple. So Tavros is a horrible example, both him and his Land. Second point; I don't really think Tavros was about to use his powers. He was just simply breathing in. In real life, we can't actually see air being breathed in. So, to make it clear in comics and cartoons, there's a graphic for it. And since we already know what the Breath symbol looks like, it'd make sense that, if someone took a deep Breath, it'd bear a similarity to the Breath symbol. Like how the Sun looks like the Light symbol.

unbeliever: The Breeze isn't restricted to an area (if it was, John's powers would be severely limited). It's everywhere; it's basically the wind. In fact, it is the wind; it's just called the Breeze to make it more MYTHIC. I even used Nanna as an example of how the Breeze was being used to help the heroes, so I don't understand why you didn't think I considered it?

all I'm saying is that the Breeze appears to be a constant benefit that is applied to John at all times, making it a "passive" power in a more generic gaming sense

Also, this is the definition of a Active class, isn't it? A Passive class isn't "concentrated".

[unbeliever536]

The Breeze (Breath power edition) is not restricted to an area in the sense that it can work away from LOWAS, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for Typheus to be able to directly influence the battlefield, which is what we would have to assume if every time the Breeze "suddenly comes to help him" it's secretly Typheus. It probably is Typheus directing the mail system, but I strongly doubt Typheus is behind Breeze events on the Battlefield, such as the delivery of Zillyhoo and the masking of John's scent.

In sum: I believe that Heirs have a constant passive buff related to their Aspect running at all times. For Equius, we had the persistent veil that blocked Doc Scratch's view of Vriska's cueball (she indicates that she retrieved it from elsewhere, presumably where Darkleer left it; this indicates that the field around Equius's hive is not a lingering effect of his power). For John, this is most of what we have been calling the Breeze: wind always blows in John's favor, bringing him what he needs and protecting him from harm. However, Typheus also has Breath powers and uses them in his activities on LOWAS.* He definitely runs the mailing system (hence deliveries to people who are not John). The salamander fire incident I'm not sure of, but you are right that it was probably Typheus. The formulation that I just gave, "the wind always blows in John's favor," seems a little weak to put out a raging fire. It also might have been John using his powers by accident, but we have no instances of that occurring with other players.

*e: The salamanders call all of that the Breeze. Jack also calls the masking of John's scent the Breeze, but neither the salamanders nor Jack have Breath powers as far as we know, so they can't necessarily be relied on to have the terminology right. What I'm calling the Breeze is the "favorable winds" power that John seems to have.

Also, this is the definition of a Active class, isn't it? A Passive class isn't "concentrated".

Not precisely. Active classes "exploit their Aspect to benefit themselves". Whether a class is active or passive seems to depend more on its use than the nature of its powers. John tends to use his powers for other players or his consorts; he puts out LOWAS and saves the salamanders (also himself, but he could have just flown away instead of creating a world-spanning hurricane), he digs out the Tumor for Rose, and he scratches Beat Mesa under orders from Jade, Karkat, and Rose.

[The_Codfish]

unbeliever: It's fine if it's hard for you to believe man. Seriously, I'm not trying to freaking force you to accept a theory as fact. Sheeesh. It's annoying how people can get so worked up about these things.

For Equius, we had the persistent veil that blocked Doc Scratch's view of Vriska's cueball

About this: I believe it was Darkleer's "aura" that surrounded Equius' home, even after he died.

[Greyscale]

Two points here. We never really saw much of Tavros' land, except for two instances: When he entered, and when he was doing a puzzle in a temple. So Tavros is a horrible example, both him and his Land.

If the Breeze was a constant for all Breath players there would be SOME mention of it. The reference to it would have been made one way or another.

Second point; I don't really think Tavros was about to use his powers. He was just simply breathing in. In real life, we can't actually see air being breathed in. So, to make it clear in comics and cartoons, there's a graphic for it. And since we already know what the Breath symbol looks like, it'd make sense that, if someone took a deep Breath, it'd bear a similarity to the Breath symbol.

Okay, maybe you need to look at the panel again.



This isn't someone breathing in. This is someone having lines coming out of his mouth, solidifying over time until it becomes a distinct presence. It sticks around up until the very moment he gets choked by Vriska. If this is meant to be a simple "breathing in", then it's not done in an elegant or understandable way at all.

In short, nuh uh.

[The_Codfish]

I'm not sure why you're being so rude about it, Greyscale, or why you're being so one-sided. That's how you understand it, and then you act as if it's the only way it can be interpreted? And then you go on to say that my way of thinking isn't elegant or understandable. I'm not even sure why you got so angry.

[Greyscale]

I'm not sure why you think I'm angry. Someone going "nuh uh" is not usually regarded as saying it in a true spirit of emotional defiance.

That's quite an accusation you know, and not a light one to make.

Maybe you're angry at me.