Choice Asspects and Class-y Discussion V2.0

[Vanymstorm]

Then again, bard and prince doubling up might be specific to them. I know princes are linked to bifurcation or something along those lines.

No. The Heart aspect is, as are "certain classes". We don't know what any of those classes are, but if Prince was one of them, UU would've said so. Top candidate seems to be Mage, really.

Even then she described it as only a potentiality. Possibly a side-effect of how their abilities work, which could actually provide some insight into that.

[Doc Scratch]

Void seems to be associated with two predominant meanings: a lack of things, and the hidden. So void would work something like this with the other classes:

Heir: The heir and his surroundings are surrounded by a veil that keep him and anything within it to be detected. He could possibly make himself or any object undetectable assuming he is skilled enough and it is within his boundaries. In general, he will be protected from all void based attacks.

Rogue: As exhibited by Roxy, the Rogue's abilities are much more far reaching, blacking out the entire session. As for her directable abilities, she can make her allies hidden, and possibly uncover secrets for them. Also has an innate sense of knowing the truth.

Theif: She would have the ability to take away something's secrecy, revealing it while making herself more hidden and undetectable. A master spy basically. Unlike the prince, she can be sneaky about it.

Prince: A prince would probably not know the location or have the knowledge of what is hidden, but is a master at uncovering it, like a master code breaker. He would also be able to destroy some things that need care by hiding it, making it neglected and forgotten. He has no way to recover what is lost, whether it is secrecy or the secret itself.

Bard: A bard would probably stumble upon a secret or allow others to do so. Due to the unpredictable nature of the bard, he would possibly create pockets of void at random times, which could hide others and himself from danger, or isolate an enemy. In the Black King's scenario, guillotine parts of him with a closing void.

Seer: A seer would know everything about hiding secrets, as well how to uncover them. She would be vital in detecting dangers, as well as the inner workings of paradox space. A void session may be where she is strongest, and she may be able to rescue the said session being a master of the void (a far fetched idea, but possible). Her knowledge of the Furthest Ring would be vital to those who wish to have the assistance of the Horrorterrors.

Witch: She would be able to adjust how hidden something is or change it's range. She would also be able to navigate the Furthest Ring, which is her territory. She may also have the ability to manipulate perspective and the void between objects.

Knight: A knight would be the master assassin, appearing out of nowhere and vanishing after a hit. He would be nearly undetectable, and deadly. Very similar to Beq. If pitted against one in battle, you are as good as dead unless you are a void player (IE, Heir of Void would not allow a Knight of Void to vanish in his presence) or have some way of defending yourself. However, he himself is defenseless when not doing his "voidy thing".

Maid: Based on the speculation, a maid would be the one hiding the things that need to be hidden, or uncovering what needs to be uncovered. Instant transport would be one of her natural abilities to better serve the team.

Page, Mage, Sylph: We honestly do not know anything about these three classes. What little knowledge there is won't be able to help determine the abilities of the player.

[Majora787]

Well actually, since Sylph was implied to be a pair with the Witch, we could venture to guess that instead of manipulating other things with their aspect, Sylphs manipulate themselves with their aspect. And Kanaya does appear to manipulate her velocity maybe... Once.

[Vanymstorm]

Heir: The heir and his surroundings are surrounded by a veil that keep him and anything within it to be detected. He could possibly make himself or any object undetectable assuming he is skilled enough and it is within his boundaries. In general, he will be protected from all void based attacks.

The defensive interpretation again? Let's see if I can explain this a bit better...

Refer to: Exihbit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C.

Exhibit A counters the idea that the Heir simply wields his aspect. That theory only explains Exhibit B; it completely fails to account for Exhibit A, and so it's faulty. Perfectly sound objection, sure. Problem is, saying the Heir is just protected by his aspect similarly ignores Exhibit B, and is therefore no less faulty. Arguably more so, in fact. If class determines how he relates to his aspect, how can we discount his own conscious actions? And both assume Exhibit C is irrelevant, which is plausible, but unnecessary. (Exhibit D works just as well under either interpretation.)

Here's something that explains all of the above: The Heir's role is about the means, rather than the ends. It's not about what he does with his aspect, but how he influences it. I think the problem is there's an assumption that "The Breeze" is standard equipment, meaning it's part of every Breath player's quest. Essentially that the Breath aspect is inherently anthropomorphic, which seems pretty odd to me given the scarcity of such tendencies in regards to other aspects (most notably Light).

[Akazani]

The defensive interpretation again? Let's see if I can explain this a bit better...

Refer to: Exihbit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C.

Exhibit A counters the idea that the Heir simply wields his aspect. That theory only explains Exhibit B; it completely fails to account for Exhibit A, and so it's faulty. Perfectly sound objection, sure. Problem is, saying the Heir is just protected by his aspect similarly ignores Exhibit B, and is therefore no less faulty. Arguably more so, in fact. If class determines how he relates to his aspect, how can we discount his own conscious actions? And both assume Exhibit C is irrelevant, which is plausible, but unnecessary. (Exhibit D works just as well under either interpretation.)

Here's something that explains all of the above: The Heir's role is about the means, rather than the ends. It's not about what he does with his aspect, but how he influences it. I think the problem is there's an assumption that "The Breeze" is standard equipment, meaning it's part of every Breath player's quest. Essentially that the Breath aspect is inherently anthropomorphic, which seems pretty odd to me given the scarcity of such tendencies in regards to other aspects (most notably Light).

Could you elaborate on the bolded bit? I think I get the rest of it.

[Vanymstorm]

Anthropomorphic is any attribution of human characteristics (or characteristics assumed to belong only to humans) to animals, non-living things, phenomena, material states, objects or abstract concepts, such as organizations, governments, spirits or deities.

Admittedly I'm using the term a bit loosely, but I'm not sure what else to call it. I'm referring to the frequent narrative treatment of The Breeze as an autonomous thing, which can act and make choices. "THE BREEZE will know where to take it," and such. Most people probably don't think much of it, since it's a pretty common thing in storytelling, and certainly has come up often in Homestuck; Skaia and Paradox Space have both been attributed a certain will... but not so much with other things.

I guess Light seems particularly glaring to me because fortune and luck are such common targets for this treatment even in contemporary settings; Lady Luck, the Fates, and the like seem to have been studiously dodged for some time now. And the subject of a proper "master" for Time has been brought up exactly once to my recollection, and it felt pretty jarring at that. And while we haven't heard much about Heart yet, it certainly seems to be following suit, which is odd for reasons I'm not sure how to explain. So I'm wondering what makes Breath different. And at the same time, I'm wondering what makes the Heir different from the Knight. And it just clicked.

[Greyscale]

The way I see how Dirk's title relates to his dual-self operations is like this.

It's not just "Prince" or "Heart", but both of them in tandem that lets him be both selves at the same time.

He's a Destroyer with Souls, and so because of this, he is able to use all parts of his soul to control and thus destroy with.

[Legendary]

And at the same time, I'm wondering what makes the Heir different from the Knight. And it just clicked.

The Heir has an anthropomorphic aspect? :P

[Sparrowsmith]

The Heir has an anthropomorphic aspect? :P

I think he means the heir doesn't do anything specific with their aspect, rather, their class causes the aspect to anthropomorphize into something that allies with them. It is an interesting theory, and I wouldn't be disappointed if it turns out canon.

So an heir of breath creates THE BREEZE which allows him to do the windy thing.
While a thief of breath could probably, quite literally, steal someone's ability to breathe.
A knight of breath may have a radically enhanced endurance.
Breath is literal in these cases to some extent, but when the heir is considered, it becomes a living entity that does as he wills.
An heir of void, however, would create THE ??????. A power with anthropomorphic properties that the heir can control. It could hide things, or uncover them, for the good of the players (or possibly just the heir) without being specifically told to do so. Much like how THE BREEZE carries things where they need to go.

This also explains why Tavros had the breath aspect sign coming from his mouth. The Page treats the breath as actual breath.

I'm not sure if I agree with this definition, but it certainly explains a lot that other definitions do not. I may be getting some details wrong, it's not my idea after all.

[dragonHacker]

So, I was thinking earlier today, that just like the classes can have two similar meanings (ex: the Prince may either destroy X or destroy with X), perhaps aspects follow in a similar suit. Instead of 'with/against' meanings classes seem to fall into, aspects do this with 'literal' and 'symbolic'.

Take Light, for example. The literal meaning of light is illumination; the seeing of things, which is pretty straightforward, given Light. The more symbolic meaning of this is fortune; it is connected, but not so directly.

If this is true in a way, any class/aspect pair would have 4 different possible interpretations. 2 for the 'with/against' Class pair, and 2 for the 'literal/symbolic' Aspect pair.

[ardentApathy]

The defensive interpretation again? Let's see if I can explain this a bit better...

Refer to: Exihbit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C.

Exhibit A counters the idea that the Heir simply wields his aspect. That theory only explains Exhibit B; it completely fails to account for Exhibit A, and so it's faulty. Perfectly sound objection, sure. Problem is, saying the Heir is just protected by his aspect similarly ignores Exhibit B, and is therefore no less faulty. Arguably more so, in fact. If class determines how he relates to his aspect, how can we discount his own conscious actions? And both assume Exhibit C is irrelevant, which is plausible, but unnecessary. (Exhibit D works just as well under either interpretation.)

Here's something that explains all of the above: The Heir's role is about the means, rather than the ends. It's not about what he does with his aspect, but how he influences it. I think the problem is there's an assumption that "The Breeze" is standard equipment, meaning it's part of every Breath player's quest. Essentially that the Breath aspect is inherently anthropomorphic, which seems pretty odd to me given the scarcity of such tendencies in regards to other aspects (most notably Light).

Hm. Maybe... maybe Aspects are only "anthropomorphized" when they are being influenced by an Heir or his active/passive counterpart? Makes sense to me, at least. It's like a Calvin and Hobbes type situation, where if the Heir is absent, "the Breeze" loses its "sentience" or whatever.

[dragonHacker]

Refer to: Exihbit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C.

Exhibit A counters the idea that the Heir simply wields his aspect. That theory only explains Exhibit B; it completely fails to account for Exhibit A, and so it's faulty. Perfectly sound objection, sure. Problem is, saying the Heir is just protected by his aspect similarly ignores Exhibit B, and is therefore no less faulty. Arguably more so, in fact. If class determines how he relates to his aspect, how can we discount his own conscious actions? And both assume Exhibit C is irrelevant, which is plausible, but unnecessary. (Exhibit D works just as well under either interpretation.)

Here's something that explains all of the above: The Heir's role is about the means, rather than the ends. It's not about what he does with his aspect, but how he influences it. I think the problem is there's an assumption that "The Breeze" is standard equipment, meaning it's part of every Breath player's quest. Essentially that the Breath aspect is inherently anthropomorphic, which seems pretty odd to me given the scarcity of such tendencies in regards to other aspects (most notably Light).

An quite valid theory, I like it. Another theory: Heir is a passive role, meaning 'one who is served by' or 'one who allows servitude by', as opposed to the Maid. While Exhibit B seems more active than passive, John is still following his role: His needs in all cases are being served by the Breeze. Perhaps Heir is to be served, and Maid is to serve?

The root problem of finding out his is Breath. We have a concrete idea of what it means literally, but symbolically we have little idea.

[ardentApathy]

An quite valid theory, I like it. Another theory: Heir is a passive role, meaning 'one who is served by' or 'one who allows servitude by', as opposed to the Maid. While Exhibit B seems more active than passive, John is still following his role: His needs in all cases are being served by the Breeze. Perhaps Heir is to be served, and Maid is to serve?

I actually like this a LOT, but I'm hesitant to modify my active/passive pairings, as that would shuffle things around quite a bit. So.... let's try and see what we come up with!

The knowns:
Thief-/Rogue+ (The Robbers)
Prince-/Bard+ (The Destroyers)
The unknowns:
Maid-/Heir+ (The Servers)
Witch-/Sylph+ (The Spellcasters)
Knight-/Page+ (The Weapons)
Mage-/Seer+ (The Mystics)

...That is WAY better than my previous list.

[Doc Scratch]

Breath may represent force in the symbolic sense, while also representing freedom and air itself. Force would work because many of John's abilities can be used to manipulate forces. It also suits him especially with his weapon being a hammer. The more force it has, the stronger it gets.

I believe an Heir is a rather defensive role for the most part because of how his aspect protects him. However, with his other more offensive abilities, the Heir may be the most balanced class which usually happens to the main character.

[Majora787]

Considering classes seem to be on a scale of how active and passive they are...

(According to UU, prince and bard are all the way on the Active side here)---> [][]---[][]---[][]---[][]---[][]---[][]

The Heir is probably there in the middle. Where the main character belongs obviously.

[Tybby]

Breath moves things around
Blood creates bonds that keep things together

Can you dig it

[Varkarrus]

I'm 99% sure Witch is passive, as both knight and heir are active, seer is passive, and Hussie is all for balance. He wouldn't just make the kids have 3 actives and one passive.

[Legendary]

I'm 99% sure Witch is passive, as both knight and heir are active, seer is passive, and Hussie is all for balance. He wouldn't just make the kids have 3 actives and one passive.

We don't know if either Knight or Heir is active, actually. Nor do we know that Seer is actually passive! Knights may have to defend others, and Seer powers are very self-centered.

[Varkarrus]

Hmmmm, you might be right. Though long before passive and active pairs were introduced, I always noticed that Jade and Rose have more help-y classes while Dave and John have fight-y classes.

[Vanymstorm]

However, with his other more offensive abilities, the Heir may be the most balanced class which usually happens to the main character.

The Heir is probably there in the middle. Where the main character belongs obviously.

..... Well there's that too, yeah. (How did I miss that?)

and Seer powers are very self-centered.

Is this the part where someone insists the Seer is "so obviously active" purely on the basis that Rose spent most of the story being really secretive and isolated? Because she also spent most of the story being pretty bad at her job, hence the phrasing of "I will make a Seer of you yet." and subsequent hints that she shouldn't be ignoring her friends. This from the same source who explained "[A Seer] would sift through dross of her comrades' poor tactical inclinations and examine the grim consequences." in fact. And since when has the cryptic oracle ever actually needed to do anything herself, beyond sitting there being cryptic at would-be heroes?

[Legendary]

It's devil's advocate. UU notes that +/- isn't absolute. We can't say anything is passive or active until we're told.

[ardentApathy]

Breath moves things around
Blood creates bonds that keep things together

Can you dig it

I dig, dawg.

I'm 99% sure Witch is passive, as both knight and heir are active, seer is passive, and Hussie is all for balance. He wouldn't just make the kids have 3 actives and one passive.

"Come on guys, it CAN'T be Roxy. That's two syllables."

...

"HUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-"

[Vanymstorm]

It's devil's advocate. UU notes that +/- isn't absolute. We can't say anything is passive or active until we're told.

Your point? There's a line when you're playing devil's advocate, and "Seer powers are very self-centered" is on the wrong side of it. Period.

[ardentApathy]

Your point? There's a line when you're playing devil's advocate, and "Seer powers are very self-centered" is on the wrong side of it. Period.

Agreed.

[Legendary]

The point still stands, though, that "Witch is passive because of the ways the other three classes work," is bullshit because we don't know who does what.

EDIT: Additionally, a Seer's power only directly affects herself. Yes, she's supposed to reveal information to everyone else. That's true. But she doesn't have to, any more than a Thief doesn't have to leave her teammates out of the line of fire when it comes to her power. She controls that aspect of it. That gives it the self-centered aspect to which I was referring, which lets devil's advocate stand, though yes I don't think she's anything other than passive.