Utahraptor had better get his science checked

[Shuckle]

You may recall that a couple days ago, Dinosaur Comics came out with this hilarious comic.

Basically, Utahraptor insists that God violates the Heisenberg principle by knowing everything. The Heisenberg Principle does indeed state that you can't know the momentum and the location of an electron at any given time. Unfortunately, his argument is flawed; the reason the Uncertainty Principle exists is because of the high-energy state of electrons. In order to observe them, we have to shoot them with proton lasers (an oversimplified term, chill) so we can measure where they are. In order to find their momentum, we have to measure what goes off of them.

In other words, the reason we can't know both momentum and location simultaneously is the fact that electrons are so volatile and so extremely tiny. How volatile? Let's say we took everyone who looked at this thread and put them into a room. Then, we turned off the lights and allowed the community to scatter and run around for a bit. We have no idea where exactly anyone is, but if we wanted to, we could measure your footsteps and find out how fast you are going. That's oversimplified, but the point is preserved.

Next, I take a bowling ball, and try to find the location of one of you delightful MSPA people by throwing it cheerfully and energetically into the room where I think a person might be. Obviously, I now know where you are, but I don't know how fast you are going because in the act of throwing said bowling ball I change the momentum.

Bringing me around to my main point, which is that the Uncertainty Principle does not apply to omniscient beings.

I'm not looking for a change or apology or anything - that would be snarky, arrogant, and rude, and I'm not that kind of person, but just pointing out something that Utahraptor might not have known.

[OrangeAipom]

So omniscient beings have the lights on? That's kind of cool.

[Gordon]

God doesn't exist... if he so wishes.

[Epamynondas]

I see your point Shuckle. BUT!

Current accepted interpretations of quantum mechanics point to uncertainty being a core property of nature. That is, that it does not depend on our way of measuring things.

Of course it could be wrong because our way of seeing nature does depend on our way of measuring things, but I think there's enough arguments to say that that's the most correct interpretation.

For example, TUNNEL EFFECT. It happens because a particle with undefined position walks next to a barrier and... well, see it for yourself





Anyway my interpretation of the comic is that Utahraptor misunderstood God. THON was saying he knows the wavefunction of the universe* but utharaptor thought thon's a CLASSICAL GOD.

*it has logarithms!

[Fokade]

God doesn't exist... if he so wishes.

One day.

God said something.

"I wish I didn't exist."

[lizard-socks]

I'm of the belief that T-Rex's God must exist, because "je rap, donc je suis."

[Shuckle]

So omniscient beings have the lights on? That's kind of cool.

? Whatever I'll just say yes

God doesn't exist... if he so wishes.

Trufax. Way to paradox yourself into a hole.

I see your point Shuckle. BUT!

Current accepted interpretations of quantum mechanics point to uncertainty being a core property of nature. That is, that it does not depend on our way of measuring things.

Of course it could be wrong because our way of seeing nature does depend on our way of measuring things, but I think there's enough arguments to say that that's the most correct interpretation.

For example, TUNNEL EFFECT. It happens because a particle with undefined position walks next to a barrier and... well, see it for yourself

show spoiler

hide spoiler

...And suddenly, your point was lost. I'll just talk about the first part.

Ripped straight from Wikipedia:

Heisenberg argues that every measurement destroys part of our knowledge of the system that was obtained by previous measurements. The uncertainty principle states a fundamental property of quantum systems, and is not a statement about the observational success of current technology.

What he's saying is, the reason we can't know is because to observe is to change. In order to know the location we obstruct our knowledge of the momentum. So it's feasible for an omniescent being to not require observation, thus knowing without changing and bypassing human sensory restrictions.

Anyway my interpretation of the comic is that Utahraptor misunderstood God. THON was saying he knows the wavefunction of the universe* but utharaptor thought thon's a CLASSICAL GOD.

*it has logarithms!

And a good interpretation it is, too.

[Epamynondas]

...And suddenly, your point was lost. I'll just talk about the first part.

Yeah sorry about that, I kinda got lost in the comic and forgot what I was saying.

My point is that the particle is able to get to the other side because its position is undefined. As in, if its position was defined but unknowable to us it would still get stuck because, well, it can't go through the wall!

So basically an omniscient being wouldn't know the momentum and position of all particles on the universe because there's no such thing. It would just know the wavefunction of everything.

[Layra]

The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle has nothing to do with measurement. It is a simple but inevitable consequence of the quantum mechanical axioms. It is impossible to talk about points in a noncommutative phase-space because individual points would correspond to two-sided maximal ideals in our ring of functions, which we don't have. Hence precise values for the position and momentum of a particle at a given moment cannot even exist simultaneously, regardless of the measurement equipment, because doing so would be equivalent to forcing the position and momentum operators to have a simultaneous eigenstate, which they do not by their very definition.
Heisenberg Uncertainty is a physical realization of the fact that matrix multiplication is noncommutative and the result is that there are no physical states which have both a precise position and a precise momentum; there's nothing about measurement there.

However, God may be able to probe beneath the Planck length. That one is a measurement problem, in that an object with the energy needed to probe beneath the Planck length, confined to a Plank volume, is within its own event horizon and thus becomes a black hole, so we don't get any information out from there. Thus no interaction will give us information about things shorter than a Planck length, but God doesn't necessarily need interactions to measure things, provided those things exist to be measured.

[Ryan North]

The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle has nothing to do with measurement. It is a simple but inevitable consequence of the quantum mechanical axioms. It is impossible to talk about points in a noncommutative phase-space because individual points would correspond to two-sided maximal ideals in our ring of functions, which we don't have. Hence precise values for the position and momentum of a particle at a given moment cannot even exist simultaneously, regardless of the measurement equipment, because doing so would be equivalent to forcing the position and momentum operators to have a simultaneous eigenstate, which they do not by their very definition.
Heisenberg Uncertainty is a physical realization of the fact that matrix multiplication is noncommutative and the result is that there are no physical states which have both a precise position and a precise momentum; there's nothing about measurement there.

However, God may be able to probe beneath the Planck length. That one is a measurement problem, in that an object with the energy needed to probe beneath the Planck length, confined to a Plank volume, is within its own event horizon and thus becomes a black hole, so we don't get any information out from there. Thus no interaction will give us information about things shorter than a Planck length, but God doesn't necessarily need interactions to measure things, provided those things exist to be measured.

I'd meant for a joke in this comic to be that Utahraptor's objection was just as terrible as God's proof, but I don't think that came through well. It is my fault!

[Epamynondas]

no sorry ryan we demand a week-long series of comics discussing the heisenberg uncertainty principle to make it up


OTHERWISE WE WILL BEGIN PIRATING YOUR COMICS HAHAHAHAHA

[lizard-socks]

I don't know about you, but I'm pirating his comics already, with the help of CSS and JavaScript.

[Ryan North]

I don't know about you, but I'm pirating his comics already, with the help of CSS and JavaScript.

>:0

[ardentApathy]

I am Terezi-Rex. Every single point I make is valid.

WHAT NOW, GOD?!?!

*is smote*

[infinitumTorpor]

There are some theories that electrons behave differently when they are being observed. This could also "disprove" God. Personally, I think heisenburg's is nonsense. Notably, there is no reliable way for measuring time, mass, position, length, or any derived unit for, say, the scale lower than the electron. H.U. isn't a result of physics or law so much as sheer scale. Which poses a possible statement against God if one believes that he is on a cosmically greater scale. Notably, all these fall flat when compared to "God Rap Principle", so the scientific community might as well throw in the hat.