COMPLAININ 'BOUT HOMESTUCK ( tUMUt )

[PetPeeve]

Sometimes you can't let the truth get in the way of a joke. But you do have a point. Mostly, I was trying to keep this discussion, as fascinating as it may be, from being someone's sociology homework.

[Dmatix]

Sometimes you can't let the truth get in the way of a joke.

Sorry. I'm a history major and Rome is my focus this semester. It's hard to disconnect yourself sometimes.

[PetPeeve]

I wasn't finding fault, just being silly. You made your points well.

[ArmsAreLoud]

This is actually a common error.Historians today say the Romans most likely killed less than a thousand Christians during the entire run of the empire- for comparison, during the 30 years war, more Christians were killed in a day by other Christians (Catholics and Protestants). Rome didn't much care about Christianity as a religion- they just saw it as a dangerous cult of dissenters that might threaten the peace. The respected Judaism even though the Judians were maybe the single most rebellious people in the empire, up until the Great Rebellion when they finally had enough. Even after that and the destruction of the Temple, you could still practice Judaism throughout the empire with no trouble.

So... wait, there really hasn't ever been a point in history where Christians as a whole were an oppressed people.

Motherfucker.

[Dmatix]

So... wait, there really hasn't ever been a point in history where Christians as a whole were an oppressed people.

Motherfucker.

The closet I can really think of was some parts of Spain during the Muslim rule over it. And even then, the Muslim were mostly respectable and civilized to them, which can't be said for the Christians.

[kaoticAntagonist]

Does self-oppression count?

[Dmatix]

Does self-oppression count?

Possibly. That kind of oppression most certainly existed. Just look at the aforementioned 30 Years War. Christians were really mostly killed and oppressed by themselves. As were Muslims.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I think that if I were to shoot myself in the foot and then complain about being oppressed most people would either give me a weird look or laugh their asses off.

[aPawnAscending]

Would only make way too much sense, Arms.

Haven't really been following the thread and came in on this. I'm going to go ahead and guess at previous Sufferer talk which lead into this. Normally I don't really care for off shoot stuff and this one is not bugging me in the least, but...it is kinda starting to broach a subject that I've seen turn pretty volatile in less civilized places and will now give a peer to peer suggestion to talk about Homestuck again, at least until a less dangerous offshoot.

Hey you know John's Vrillyhoo Popup hammer? The one that I guess he alchemized using the Warhammer of Zillyhoo and the Fluorite Octet? I kinda wonder what would happen if he pops an 8^8 with that? I kinda thought Spider8reath Windfang for a second and now that seems like a really cool thing. If I was a more artsy person I would even do fanart for that non-existent John type.


EDIT: ACTUALLY COMPLAIN ABOUT SOMETHING! That hammer idea would be cool, and would work for a certain other thread that I had on another tab and I accidently thought was THIS tab and I don't even know where I am anymore, but I need to complain about something I guess. I really don't have anything off the top of my head. Except the author self inserts are getting a bit weird of late but I'm sure that topic was hit harder than Jake's boner already.

[Dmatix]

Would only make way too much sense, Arms.

Haven't really been following the thread and came in on this. I'm going to go ahead and guess at previous Sufferer talk which lead into this. Normally I don't really care for off shoot stuff and this one is not bugging me in the least, but...it is kinda starting to broach a subject that I've seen turn pretty volatile in less civilized places and will now give a peer to peer suggestion to talk about Homestuck again, at least until a less dangerous offshoot.

Hey you know John's Vrillyhoo Popup hammer. The one that I guess he alchemized using the Warhammer of Zillyhoo and the Fluorite Octet? I kinda wonder what would happen if he pops an 8^8 with that? I kinda though Spider8reath Windfang for a second and now that seems like a really cool thing. If I was a more artsy person I would even do fanart for that non-existent John type.

I suppose you're right. I was looking at the matter from a purely historical perspective, but I see how this can get unpleasant. Moving on then.

[OrangeAipom]

Is anyone else really weirded out by Aranea's description of A1? It seems very "white man's burden"-esque to me, and honestly kind of disturbing. Acting like people of other races are helpless and need the help of a superior race to survive is just as racist as treating people of other races like dirt. Even if it's a nicer place to live, it doesn't really seem like an especially less racist/classist place.

A1 could still be pretty dystopian, a Brave New World to A2's 1984/Starship Troopers.

That's what makes it so intriguing to me. It's so utopian to Jake that it must be fucked up in some way.

I'd rather not talk about how the racist implications in the troll world are different from the human world, since that doesn't make any sense.

Besides, it has Feferi as an empress in it (who I'm willing to bet was the one who set up the whole system in the first place), and she's a pretty sweet gal. Don't think she'd screw anything up at all. Since, if they aren't players, the ancestors/guardians are pretty competent people in society.

culling lowbloods all day erryday

Feferi may be nice, but she certainly has a condescending "better than you" streak (calling Jade retarded, I'M DEAD STUPID, treatment of Sollux in return to the core). I could definitely see her setting up a constricting system like Aranea is describing. Feferi is far from perfect.

BAKA, it's not because she hates lowbloods or anything.

[lackadaisicalInsomniac]

I can see why a government run by feferi would end up like this. I dont think that she really realizes that when it comes to something like hemospectrum equality, she cant have her cake and eat it too. While she says that she believes everyone is equal, she wears tons of gold jewelry and has never been particularly subtle about the wealth she has. She has sea ponies and a troll ipad in her room! While she might not necessarily agree with the system under Meenahs regime, she certainly benefits from it, and I think she thinks that its ok as long as she tries to "help" those who are lower on the spectrum than she is. she probably thinks of herself as a big fairy tale-esque heroin, in the same way that i think meenah does, and tries to villianize people who she disagrees with.

And regardless of how old Feferi and Meenah are, the name Condescention will always suit them.

[Tybby]

Is anyone else really weirded out by Aranea's description of A1? It seems very "white man's burden"-esque to me, and honestly kind of disturbing. Acting like people of other races are helpless and need the help of a superior race to survive is just as racist as treating people of other races like dirt. Even if it's a nicer place to live, it doesn't really seem like an especially less racist/classist place.

A1 could still be pretty dystopian, a Brave New World to A2's 1984/Starship Troopers.

So the upper classes are taking care of the lower classes and you feel like this is "classist"

What are you, fox news?

(also, you might want to edit out the whole "White people are upper class, everyone else is lower class" bit before you offend someone)

[PumpkinMan]

So the upper classes are taking care of the lower classes and you feel like this is "classist"

What are you, fox news?

(also, you might want to edit out the whole "White people are upper class, everyone else is lower class" bit before you offend someone)

I think it's more of the "this is what your class has to do" thing he's on about. Because apparently Meenah had to straight up leave the planet to not have to do a job she hated. Which seems pretty extreme if she had a choice in doing it or if it was just a few people trying to get her to do it.

[ArmsAreLoud]

There's also the matter of what exactly "taking care of" entails. The various European nations justified them chopping up China into spheres of influence by saying that they were simply taking up the white man's burden of keeping the less civilized nations from slaughtering themselves with their own stupidity.

Remember kiddos, the only person who's opinion we have heard is a high ranking noble with absolute faith in the system.

[Enolagay]

So the upper classes are taking care of the lower classes and you feel like this is "classist"

What are you, fox news?

(also, you might want to edit out the whole "White people are upper class, everyone else is lower class" bit before you offend someone)

not really sure if serious, but
he's just comparing the highbloods' attitude towards the lowbloods to a white man's burden mindset, not necessarily...agreeing with it?
forgive me if you're just joking, it's late and MISC COMPLAINT: this damn parenting class baby doll poops every five minutes

[ArmsAreLoud]

It's kind of interesting though: In A1 the high bloods are stereotyped as being wiser and more suited to guide those lower than themselves, while in A2 the high bloods are stereotyped as being very rash and needing someone (often times a low blood) to serve as a calming influence.

[OrangeAipom]

It's kind of interesting though: In A1 the high bloods are stereotyped as being wiser and more suited to guide those lower than themselves, while in A2 the high bloods are stereotyped as being very rash and needing someone (often times a low blood) to serve as a calming influence.

i did not realize

[ArmsAreLoud]

I am going to assume that you are being sarcastic and roll my eyes at you.

[wait]

You can't really equate a dog with a human because dogs, to the best of my knowledge, cannot do math to any significant degree.

That is the point. Separate races with unique capabilities exist, as does racial inequality, regardless of how much anyone wants to pretend otherwise just to be politically correct. Dogs aren't as smart as humans. I said it. Go ahead and call PETA on me.

The acknowledgement of race (racism) is not inherently wrong. It can be argued that unjust discrimination is wrong, but that is something else entirely, and from what Aranea has said, we have no reason to believe that their system is unjust.

[CSJ]

white man's burden

I was waiting for someone to mention this.

The idea being 'we are better than x, therefore, we should help them run their lives (the way we think they should be run)'. That kind of system easily gives way to prejudice and discrimination because of the assumptions it makes, including that in this case, 'Highbloods' will somehow know exactly what their Lowblood counterparts need - even if this isn't want they necessarily want. It may even end up with the ruling class trying endlessly to make Lowbloods behave/act/think like 'good little highbloods'.

Lotsa unfortunate implications there.

[The_Codfish]

CSJ: Like I've said before, I don't think the majority of the trolls would even think they were better than the castes below them. It's not blood, but age that's important in their society. You also seem to be missing the fact that the highbloods of the pre-Scratch universe were supposed to help the lowbloods do reach their full potential to do what they wanted to do, not pigeonhole them into doing things they didn't like.

[CSJ]

Separate races with unique capabilities exist, as does racial inequality, regardless of how much anyone wants to pretend otherwise just to be politically correct.

If it wasn't for the fact the 'Political Crap' no longer exists, I would be knocking you over the head with the proverbial fancy santa. 'Races' are different to 'Species', for beginners.

Whether or not 'race' has any grounding in genetics is an enormous political and scientific clusterfuck, though I personally see 'Race' as a human construct that only exists within a sociocultural environment. Personal experiences - particularly during childhood, is IMHO at the centre of most of the things people erroneously identify with 'race', including differences in intelligence and whatnot.

Doesn't necessary have as much validity in relation to troll society, but there you go.

You also seem to be missing the fact that the highbloods of the pre-Scratch universe were supposed to help the lowbloods do reach their full potential to do what they wanted to do, not pigeonhole them into doing things they didn't like.

Note that in the discussion where this is brought up, they are still called 'lowbloods' and that while the use of differences in lifespan to justify the troll hierarchy may have validity, it does not prevent the holding of prejudiced views or perspectives by 'highbloods'. I think it was mentioned somewhere that the changes Pre-Scratch Fef put in place weren't all that popular, but I may be wrong.

EDIT: As 'highbloods' as suposed to be 'wiser' as well as longer-lived, they would have a great deal of control over the upbringing of lowbloods. As a 'long-lived and wise' troll their word would be assumed to be of higher repute / greater validity. They would write all of the textbooks (while also being all of the teachers), design all of the cultural works (etc) because their lifespan would give them more time to create such things and excel at professions that support such pursuits. The prestige of such achievements can easily overshadow the moral virtues which pre-scratch Fef may have instilled. That distinction naturally tends itself to prejudiced views, even if it this is unintentional.

[The_Codfish]

They aren't actually still called lowbloods. That's only me (or, us? I'm not really keeping track). I actually quoted everything Aranea stated on the matter from the previous page, and not once did she ever call the lowbloods, well, 'lowbloods'. I just kept on using the word because that's what we're all familiar with. Look, I'll go ahead and put the whole thing here again.

ARANEA: Yes. 8lue 8loods like myself were higher than most.
ARANEA: The jo8 of each 8lood caste was to serve the needs of all those 8elow it.
ARANEA: We were to use our progressively greater longevity and wisdom to help the lower castes learn and grow. To listen to them and try to provide whatever they were missing. Like a hierarchy of caretakers with increasing social responsi8ility. When the order functioned in harmony our civilization would flourish.

ARANEA: Remem8er how I said each class had a duty to take care of the younger and more populous classes lower on the order?
ARANEA: Well, hers was the highest of all.
ARANEA: She was the only one on the planet with such royal 8lood, aside from the sitting empress.
ARANEA: As the heiress, she was meant for a position of incredi8le responsi8ility.
ARANEA: Once she claimed the throne, she would have to serve for many thousands of years, until the next successor was ready.

ARANEA: She despised the whole social order, really.
ARANEA: I foolishly tried to convince her to honor her o8ligation, 8ut she wouldn't listen.
ARANEA: She viewed the empress as a glorified slave.

Not once has their been any indication of there ever being any prejudice among the highbloods. That's all on some of us just being pessimistic about their society. No doubt that there would have been highbloods who thought they were superior, but it's likely that they're just a radical minority in that iteration of the Troll universe. Like nazis.

It was never mentioned that the 'changes' (not really changes, since it's likely she was the one who established the system in the first place) pre-Scratch Fef made were unpopular. It was stated, though, that Meenah was unpopular among their group of friends. So you may have just been confused about it.

[safetyboots]

We don't have enough information, therefore it's difficult to make any statement about how this system affects each of its individuals. It's safe to say, however, that Meenah is oppressed by their system.