COMPLAININ 'BOUT HOMESTUCK ( tUMUt )

[Conspicuous]

Just wanted to add: The Condesce apparently remembered enough of her race's scientific knowledge to genetically engineer all of the lusii, the troll race, and the drones. Then made robotic versions of them when it didn't work out.

I think we can assume that, in Troll society, age DOES mean more knowledge and skill. This is a fictional world. It works.

I think that if you're millennia old, you're hard pressed not to know a lot of thing unless you really hate learning or something.

[safetyboots]

Everyone on the caste has a responsibility to those below them.

This is one of my criticisms of their society. No one is below anyone.

It's not only knowledge, but perspective that's important.

Longevity isn't the only characteristic that determines perspective and knowledge, a child may be more rational and wise than an adult. That's exactly why we shouldn't make judgments according to characteristics, but actions.

A1 trolls are Plato's Republic. Simple as that.

How I didn't see that? No wonder I'm having a hard time with it.

[ArmsAreLoud]

@ safety - A1 trolls are Plato's Republic. Simple as that.

Congratulations, Quirk! You have successfully described why I am wary of the A1 government in two sentences. I'd give you an achievement but I can't be sure if you deserve it until a noble tells me so.

[Dmatix]

Well, as far as I see it, A1 trolls are more similar to the early to middle Roman Republic. I even wrote a short analysis of this in one of the discussion threads.

As for Condy's knowlegde, don't forget she came with her flagship. That thing must have computers with all the data she could ever need.

[Quirk]

Congratulations, Quirk! You have successfully described why I am wary of the A1 government in two sentences. I'd give you an achievement but I can't be sure if you deserve it until a noble tells me so.

Unfortunately, I am incapable of receiving said achievement until a philosopher verifies that it is in fact a true achievement, and not an imitation of an achievement.

Holy shit I hate that man.

[The_Codfish]

I think that if you're millennia old, you're hard pressed not to know a lot of thing unless you really hate learning or something.

Considering what we know of Meenah's personality....

But yeah, this goes to show that highbloods are able to learn more than lowbloods, even if the 'upper limit' of all the knowledge any one troll can gain caps out at around the blue blood level.

[Dmatix]

Unfortunately, I am incapable of receiving said achievement until a philosopher verifies that it is in fact a true achievement, and not an imitation of an achievement.

Holy shit I hate that man.

Rome kicks Greece's ass. And I'm not just saying it because it's my main subject this semester.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Having to study Plato in my philosophy class made the sweet logic of Hume ecstasy by comparison.

[The_Codfish]

So hey. Uh, anyone mind telling me about what Plato's Republic is?

[Conspicuous]

Considering what we know of Meenah's personality....

But yeah, this goes to show that highbloods are able to learn more than lowbloods, even if the 'upper limit' of all the knowledge any one troll can gain caps out at around the blue blood level.

I dunno, Meenah mostly seems to loathe having to serve others.
I don't think she's necessarily opposed to learning.

[Mazerunner]

You don't have to live for centuries to be a good doctor, and experienced ones aren't necessarily better than those less-experienced. Moreover, the knowledge of an individual, even if it lived for millennia, is small and limited compared to the knowledge generated by an entire civilization.

Sure, there could absolutely be a doctor who's just as or more skilled than another despite being younger or less experienced. But would you claim that that doctor could not benefit from an additional few years of experience? A few decades? A few centuries?

Actually I'm not even sure what we're arguing about? You're right, anyone has the potential to be a good doctor or scientist or whatever, which is why you should support those who might be less able so that they can contribute just as much. A disease that shortens the lives of its victims should be cured, and if that's not possible then society should make sure that those with it can still live the best lives possible. Society exists to serve the individual, as you just said? Just in this case the disease is old age, and it affects the different strata of troll society unequally, so those in the better position have an obligation to help those less fortunate. Same could be said for poverty, physical and mental disabilities, etc.

Steven Hawking is an absolutely brilliant physicist, but he would not have been able to live the life he did if the more 'abled' had not assisted him.

[The_Codfish]

Meenah just seems like the type who doesn't care how things are done so long as they are, though I'm sure it's crossed her mind that having complete control and mastery over her empire's technology and scientific knowledge would give her a stronger hold on her subjects.

Oh, and proof that lowbloods are just as valued as highbloods; Karkat's symbol.

[Quirk]

So hey. Uh, anyone mind telling me about what Plato's Republic is?

So this Greek bastard Plato wrote three hundred some pages of mastrubatory mary-sue fanfic about his teacher Socrates, all about Socrates babbling on about the ideal city to a horde of characters who only serve as yes men and talking about how art is bad and false because it is three times removed from the truth and only philosophers know how anything works and philosophy is the greatest and so on and so forth.

He likes censorship, totalitarianism, and hypocrisy. And somehow this is considered one of the greatest works of anything ever written.

@Arms - Didn't get to Hume this semester, but I do know that Pascal is my bro, specifically because he writes using paragraphs.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Oh, and proof that lowbloods are just as valued as highbloods; Karkat's symbol.

Except the Sufferer would not have suffered in this timeline so it's entirely possible that symbol isn't even associated with him???

We still need to figure out what the fuck is up with that necklace.

[Dmatix]

That's why I went into History rather than Philosophy. Historian aren't as infuriating. Most of the time. Tacitus for example is an awesome dude. He does not give half a fuck who he annoys, and he wrote his stuff under the empire, not the republic.

[PetPeeve]

@ safety - A1 trolls are Plato's Republic. Simple as that.

Plato explores many differnent kinds of government in that book. Now, one of those is a collective where people give up their kids to the state and there's a rigid caste structure, but that's more like the current troll society than the original one. What exactly are you trying to say here?

Rome kicks Greece's ass. And I'm not just saying it because it's my main subject this semester.

I certainly agree with that. The Greeks were much more xenophobic and predatory than the Romans were. Then again, they were free to loot the good parts of greek philosophy and build it into their own culture, instead of having to make the whole thing up from scratch like the Greeks did.

[kaoticAntagonist]

I would assume A1-Karkat did a revolution or some shit too.

Don't know why, but he did something to inspire followers.


Or maybe its like a one of those stock revolutionary shirts for trolls.

[Conspicuous]

Alternatively, she only started wearing it after she died and learned of the A2 Signless.

[The_Codfish]

Though, judging by how Aranea stated that, if she were to date Jake, he'd have to die young, I'd wager that you can't really change your appearances in the dreambubble aside from cycling through the clothes you wear, but only when it's relevant to how you are/what you're thinking about.

[PetPeeve]

So hey. Uh, anyone mind telling me about what Plato's Republic is?

"The Republic" is a book/essay/dialectic thing written by the greek philosopher Plato, and it's the root document for most of humanity's systems of government, in the context of chasing down the concept of "justice" and how situational it is. Or isn't.

I don't know how you can point to something and say "that's an example of Plato's republic". It's like pointing at a word and saying "that's a dictionary".

Edit: Damn, I can never spell "philosopher" properly.

[Dmatix]

"The Republic" is a book/essay/dialectic thing written by the greek philospoher Plato, and it's the root document for most of humanity's systems of government, in the context of chasing down the concept of "justice" and how situational it is.

I don't know how you can point to something and say "that's plato's republic". It's like pointing at a word and saying "that's a dictionary".

I think the honor of "Most of humanity's system of government" goes to Aristotle, not Plato. Polybius, for example, quoted his theories when discussing the nature of the Roman Republic. See Aristotle's THE ATHENIAN CONSTITUTION

[PetPeeve]

I think the honor of "Most of humanity's system of government" goes to Aristotle, not Plato. Polybius, for example, quoted his theories when discussing the nature of the Roman Republic. See Aristotle's THE ATHENIAN CONSTITUTION

Plato is in my opinion the first guy to think out some of the -cracies and how they change how people lived based on the system they're under. The greeks in general were fantastic thinkers, if very often (and moreso as their empire progressed) flaming hypocrites. That's why I agreed about romans being the better of the two - at least they were pretty honest about what they were, and had good taste in what they subsumed into their culture when they conquered someone.

Contrast with the Greeks, who called conquered subjects "barbarians". "Bar bar" is the ancient greek equivalent of making the "hand puppet" gesture at someone you think is beneath listening to, and you want them to shut up and listen to you instead. Sort of like "yadda yadda"ing someone.

P.S. Also note: Aristotle was one of Plato's students, and was not averse to lifting other's ideas wholesale and making them his own. Admittedly often improving them in the process, but not always. I am really not a huge fan of Aristotle myself, he always seemed like Mr. "not invented here".

[Dmatix]

Another thing the Romans did was integrate the conquered people into the empire as citizens, slowly at first to Rome's Italian allies and finally to all living in the empires' borders. No other empire ever did that, not even modern ones. They were mostly very liberal about religion too.

[PetPeeve]

Exactly! Well, there was the whole Christian thing. There's freedom of religion, and then there's "we could really use some lion chow".

[Dmatix]

Exactly! Well, there was the whole Christian thing. There's freedom of religion, and then there's "we could really use some lion chow".

This is actually a common error.Historians today say the Romans most likely killed less than a thousand Christians during the entire run of the empire- for comparison, during the 30 years war, more Christians were killed in a day by other Christians (Catholics and Protestants). Rome didn't much care about Christianity as a religion- they just saw it as a dangerous cult of dissenters that might threaten the peace. The respected Judaism even though the Judians were maybe the single most rebellious people in the empire, up until the Great Rebellion when they finally had enough. Even after that and the destruction of the Temple, you could still practice Judaism throughout the empire with no trouble.