COMPLAININ 'BOUT HOMESTUCK ( tUMUt )

[safetyboots]

Nobody in particular, and I tried to be succinct and direct as possible. I'd appreciate it if you could point out what you didn't understand.

Anyway, I'm basically saying that the organization of their society is racist.

[The_Codfish]

No, I understood it, I think the problem is that I didn't know who you were directing it toward.

So, going back to the pre-Scratch Troll culture talk; like I said, it seems like some of the people here are making pre-mature assumptions. It was never stated that any of the trolls were forced into jobs because of their caste's natural abilities, simply that those higher up on the hemospectrum guided those below them. When I say 'job', I mean in the sense I think you guys are talking about. The higher castes still have the job of teaching and guiding the ones below them, and this is because of their longer lives which IS a natural ability of their caste. Though I choose to look at that as being some sort of mandatory civic service, which they can do as an aside while they work on whatever they wish (no proof on this, though, since we can't be sure if their duty to take care of those below them is full time or not, though considering that all castes look over those below them, it'd make sense if it's as a side job).

Honestly, the way you guys are reacting so negatively towards their culture is just because of the fact that the words "caste system" brings up negative feelings, which is why you all look so pessimistically towards their government. I haven't seen anyone point out any negative aspects of their culture yet that we know for sure is completely true.

[ArmsAreLoud]

We know that Aranea considers low bloods less capable than high bloods because high bloods live longer and can have more experiences. Which is a pretty flawed argument in and of itself.

[safetyboots]

I haven't seen anyone point out any negative aspects of their culture yet that we know for sure is completely true.

Indeed, most of this is speculation. However, my intention is to demonstrate that there are inherent problems in a social structure arbitrarily determined. Longevity and inherent abilities don't determine one's competence to guide or help another. Besides, I'm not necessarily advocating for any portion of this society, any kind of prejudice is harmful. Although my first impression was "white man's burden", I can't say with certainty that this is the case here. We don't know about other castes, but we know that their society demands too much from Meenah, to the point that she had to flee to their moon.

[Conspicuous]

We know that Aranea considers low bloods less capable than high bloods because high bloods live longer and can have more experiences. Which is a pretty flawed argument in and of itself.

Well, someone has to whip the lower classes, and it isn't going to be a mudblood.

[safetyboots]

Well, someone has to whip the lower classes, and it isn't going to be a mudblood.

I'm all about whipping, but that should always be safe and consensual.

[The_Codfish]

We know that Aranea considers low bloods less capable than high bloods because high bloods live longer and can have more experiences. Which is a pretty flawed argument in and of itself.

Yeah, see, this is why I'm saying some of you are confused. The only things she said were that highbloods lived longer, and thus, accumulated more experience and wisdom. Since this is a story, we can assume this is true. It was never stated or even implied that the lowbloods were treated inferior to the highbloods.

Look, I'm just going to quote what Aranea has said of their culture.

ARANEA: Yes. 8lue 8loods like myself were higher than most.
ARANEA: The jo8 of each 8lood caste was to serve the needs of all those 8elow it.
ARANEA: We were to use our progressively greater longevity and wisdom to help the lower castes learn and grow. To listen to them and try to provide whatever they were missing. Like a hierarchy of caretakers with increasing social responsi8ility. When the order functioned in harmony our civilization would flourish.

ARANEA: Remem8er how I said each class had a duty to take care of the younger and more populous classes lower on the order?
ARANEA: Well, hers was the highest of all.
ARANEA: She was the only one on the planet with such royal 8lood, aside from the sitting empress.
ARANEA: As the heiress, she was meant for a position of incredi8le responsi8ility.
ARANEA: Once she claimed the throne, she would have to serve for many thousands of years, until the next successor was ready.

ARANEA: She despised the whole social order, really.
ARANEA: I foolishly tried to convince her to honor her o8ligation, 8ut she wouldn't listen.
ARANEA: She viewed the empress as a glorified slave.

It's not that the highbloods were the only ones who acted out as 'caretakers'; the lowbloods did it too.

Plus, like you said safetyboots, having a long life does not make a person competent enough to guide others. It's experience and wisdom. I'm not saying everyone was right for the job, just that highbloods were in a better position to be able to learn more.

Plus +, I really don't think Meenah could actually give an accurate description of what the government is like. Considering what we've seen and heard of her (and the Condesce). She's actually a clear example of what you're talking about; someone not fit to teach or guide anyone.

Anyway, I really don't think there's any racism involved here at all? Seriously. I mean, it's not as if there weren't any trolls who thought they were superior to those below them on the caste system. Just that, generally, the majority of their society was unprejudiced.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Think of it this way, Codfish: Meenah is not fit to govern anyone but she was expected to do so anyways because she is a Tyrian and that is what Tyrians do.

[Conspicuous]

Really, the castes in A1 seem to expect the lower classes to honour the higher bloods and their wisdom, and the higher classes are expected if not required to help the little shits not make a fool out of themselves.

[The_Codfish]

Yep. But, presumably, the system worked out for the billions of years before she arrived.

Conspicuous: Like I said, you're presuming too much.

[PumpkinMan]

Think of it this way, Codfish: Meenah is not fit to govern anyone but she was expected to do so anyways because she is a Tyrian and that is what Tyrians do.

And Aranea apparently tried to get her to do so, despite knowing her. Maybe it was hoping she would turn out better at it than she appeared, but still doesn't strike me as the best idea, as opposed to finding someone who wouldn't find the job to be some kind of punishment. Most likely Meenah wasn't the only tyrian around, just the highest. Just seems like a thing that should have been accounted for.

[safetyboots]

She's actually a clear example of what you're talking about; someone not fit to teach or guide anyone.

However, there's no room for her in their society simply because of her ancestors. This is prejudice. Their society demands that they behave according to the color of their blood. This is racism.

Yep. But, presumably, the system worked out for the billions of years before she arrived.

If an individual isn't free to determine its own life, then the system doesn't work.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Yep. But, presumably, the system worked out for the billions of years before she arrived.

Depending on your definition of "worked out" so did the A2 system.

[Conspicuous]

If an individual isn't free to determine its own life, then the system doesn't work.

I'm not free to decide to kill someone or refuse to pay taxes.
Does that mean our system doesn't work?

Every social system carries with it expectations from it's members, A1 Alternia was no different, it just expected a lot of Meenah.

[The_Codfish]

However, there's no room for her in their society simply because of her ancestors. This is prejudice. Their society demands that they behave according to their blood color. This is racism.


If an individual isn't free to determine its own life, then the system doesn't work.

Presumably, before she took to the throne, she'd have to be trained for 1000 years. Soooo, what? That's only like, eeeeeh, 2000 years of her life before she can go ahead and get out of the job, right? Considering how long the rest of her life is....

Look at it as life experience for the tyrian bloods. Like school, except on a grander scale. For a caste where the FIRST living member is probably still alive, healthy, and maybe still attractive (DEM HIPS), giving up a few thousand years of their life for others probably isn't even really a thing, is it?

ArmsAreLoud: The analogy doesn't work. The pre-Scratch universe was probably pretty mild while the post-Scratch universe was taken to the horrible extreme. It's like comparing a well-adjusted person to a maniacal murderer. Look at the human universe and its pre- and post-Scratch iterations.

Plus, hopefully, their government wasn't a dictatorship and they actually discussed and voted on what decisions would be made for the majority.

[Mazerunner]

We know that Aranea considers low bloods less capable than high bloods because high bloods live longer and can have more experiences. Which is a pretty flawed argument in and of itself.

Yes and no. I believe Hussie's stated that the low end of the spectrum can live for about 30-50 years I think, while the high end can live for centuries, if not millenia. That means that a high blood could easily 'afford' to go to school (or Troll school, whatever) to learn to be a doctor, scientist, etc., while for a low-blood that's most of their life right there.

From an individual's perspective, who would want to spend half their life just training to do something that you won't even get to do for more than a few years.
From a societal perspective, why waste time and resources training a low-blood, when you could train a high-blood who'd be a far better investment?
In addition, a high-blood will spend decades and centuries mastering their craft. Of course this could lead to stagnation, with these high-blood 'masters' refusing new developments, methods or schools of thought because that's 'not how it's done' or whatever.

If no action is taken, what you end up is with the high-bloods gathering all the money and power in the society, while the low-bloods toil in low-skill, untrained, low-paid jobs, and troll society stagnates.
What A1 Feferi seemed to have encouraged, however, is a restructuring of society such that low-bloods, even with their shorter lives can and are encouraged to contribute, to better themselves and thus society, while high-bloods are encouraged to share with and nurture the low-bloods.

To a high-blood, the low must seem in an almost perpetual state of childhood, like a teacher whose class always dies shortly after they graduate. Sure, they reach adulthood and can contribute, but only for a little while and then you have to train their replacement. The easiest thing to do would be to just ignore them pretty much. Instead, A1 high bloods were supposed to facilitate the growth and development of the low so that everyone can have a place in society. Perhaps it's not totally equal, but it's a lot better than the A2 Trolls, or really even many places and situations in real life.

It does sort of ring a bell with white man's burden, but I don't think you can really compare the two exactly because in this case the low-bloods do have an actual disadvantage. With WMB, it was the bringing of technology and 'civilization' to the 'savages', ignoring that those 'savages' were just as smart and had their own equally valid world views and societies. With the Trolls though, the low-bloods are actually at a disadvantage. Probably the closest comparison would be physical disabilities amongst humans. It's not the "Able-Person's Burden" to build wheel-chair ramps or whatever, it's just society attempting to include those who need just that extra bit of help.

edit: woah, a bunch of new posts there. I'll just say I do agree that teenage Meenah was totally unsuitable to be big boss of the Trolls, but then again I'd probably say that about many teenage versions of world leaders today. Thing is they grew up and matured, and it's quite possible that Meenah, given the proper guidance, would have grown into an excellent leader in time.

And Safetyboots, I believe that what the A1 Troll society set up is probably more 'free' to everyone than many alternatives. The low-bloods were given the resources and such to allow them access to paths in life that would otherwise be unavailable, while the high-bloods were encouraged to continue to connect with and support society instead of isolating themselves.

[safetyboots]

I'm not free to decide to kill someone or refuse to pay taxes.
Does that mean our system doesn't work?

Wow. Let's try to be less aggressive, please?

What's your concept of freedom?

Presumably, before she took to the throne, she'd have to be trained for 1000 years. Soooo, what? That's only like, eeeeeh, 2000 years of her life before she can go ahead and get out of the job, right? Considering how long the rest of her life is....

Two thousand years of forced labor. Time doesn't pass more slowly for her.*

*Go read Neil Gaiman's Sandman.

[Conspicuous]

Wow. Let's try to be less aggressive, please?

What's your concept of freedom?

All I'm saying is that no society offers complete freedom to determine your own life.

A1 Alternia may have more expectations from it's members than most societies, but that certainly doesn't mean it cannot work.

[The_Codfish]

Adding to what Runner said, it's not as if lowbloods couldn't be better than highbloods. I'm sure that the highbloods would respect any troll accomplished at his work, no matter what his caste may be. If we were to take anything from what Nerdfang said, the highbloods wanted all the lowbloods to grow to their full potential.

safetyboots: I love that series.

But you may be looking at it wrong. Think traditional high-fantasy elves. That's basically what her caste is. Plus, you may be overestimating the strain of her work. Considering how each caste teaches the one below it, it seems like there's enough delegation to make the work low stress.

[safetyboots]

From an individual's perspective, who would want to spend half their life just training to do something that you won't even get to do for more than a few years. From a societal perspective, why waste time and resources training a low-blood, when you could train a high-blood who'd be a far better investment?

What if this is the will of the individual? The individual doesn't exist to serve society, society that exists to serve the individual.

All I'm saying is that no society offers complete freedom to determine your own life.

Killing a person is to remove her right to live. Furthermore, you're bound by much more, like physical limitations. Anyway, I'm not saying that our society is perfect. It has many problems and if we keep this system there will be no future for anyone.

[Mazerunner]

What if this is the will of the individual? The individual doesn't exist to serve society, society that exists to serve the individual.

Precisely? With no intervention, a low-blood who really wanted to a doctor, even if that's not the best idea for them, would most likely be passed up, and even if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to contribute very much.

Now with the A1 situation, those low-blood trolls are encouraged and nurtured to be whatever they want, and given the resources and treatment such that they maximize their potential in their limited time. Low-blood gets to be a great doctor, and high-bloods get to go to a great doctor. Everyone wins?

[safetyboots]

You don't have to live for centuries to be a good doctor, and experienced ones aren't necessarily better than those less-experienced. Moreover, the knowledge of an individual, even if it lived for millennia, is small and limited compared to the knowledge generated by an entire civilization.

[The_Codfish]

Okay, the way I see it, the only problem on the system is that highbloods are forced into being teachers? Since it's not only them. Everyone on the caste has a responsibility to those below them. It would be logical to think that it wasn't the blood caste that decides this, but age. So it's a system that values the old. But they're not the same as old humans. The "old" in their race are either at their peak mental and physical capacities, or actually still improving.

safetyboots: It's not only knowledge, but perspective that's important. So that they know not to repeat the mistakes of their history. Plus, what you said about experienced ones not always being better? That's true. It's just that it's likely only true for a small portion of society.

[Quirk]

@ safety - A1 trolls are Plato's Republic. Simple as that.

[The_Codfish]

Just wanted to add: The Condesce apparently remembered enough of her race's scientific knowledge to genetically engineer all of the lusii, the troll race, and the drones. Then made robotic versions of them when it didn't work out.

I think we can assume that, in Troll society, age DOES mean more knowledge and skill. This is a fictional world. It works.