The Medium Has Your Soul: Why Sburb is irredemably Evil (and what to do about it)

[reignonyourparade]

sburb is a compromise. Blame the horrorterrors.

[temporalMessiah]

Actually, on that note, as has been stated earlier, the Universe will one day die out anyways. Sburb would give us an out to provide an eternity of growth as opposed to a couple billion years, then dying a slow, painful death and realizing that all our advancements, all our growth, everything that was in our time, amounted to shit. I'd rather not be in a Shaggy Dog story.

[newGenesis]

Except you said that you were going to destroy the game without caring about the stakes, or in other words, without providing a better option.

Good catch! Thanks!

I meant ending the meaningless suffering and death. I like to think about that as "TERMINATING THE HORRORTERROR OF MEANINGLESS SUFFERING AND DEATH!" or something.

Which means what exactly? Killing everything so nobody would have to suffer and die? That's kind of nihilistic and horrible.

That had nothing to do with your statement on nature not demanding sacrifice. The fact that you eat proves that nature quite clearly DOES.

Keywords: All powerful; possibilities; limited; actual.

In more lay terms, I simply don't have a choice in that matter. The game has.

You don't know that. You're predicating your argument on the basis that Skaia could function perfectly fine without destroying planets, but does so anyway for shits and giggles. You don't have any proof to back that up.

I don't think you quite understand what nature is.

I am confident in my knowledge and capability, kind sir.

Rewriting the rules. That's what I meant.

How exactly?

The entire point of the game is to make something come of it.

And kill some in a ridiculous and meaningless process. No, thank you.

It's not meaningless just because we don't know why it happens. It could be completely required.

[temporalMessiah]

^This.

Especially since, as I said, the Black King, not Skaia, is responsible for the planet destroying. Skaia could operate without it. It doesn't, because some jack-ass doesn't roll like that.

And rewriting the cosmic law is impossible. I defy you to try and change how even gravity works.

Also, man, please. Just suggesting, but could you gather your thoughts before you post? It's hard to keep up with edits. It's like "Well, there's my long-winded post. Oh wait, shit, there's more." If you can, of course.

[temporalMessiah]

Again, cosmic morality is well beyond individual morality. I've made this comparison earlier: Sperm is alive, same as you, a goat, a whale, a fairy bull, or what-have-you. In a single human ejaculation you can find untold billions of individual sperm cells. Only one of them's gonna live. That is not unlike what's going on with Sburb, but on a much greater scale. Why do I have to keep making this comparison?

Actually, on that note, why AM I making this comparison? True though it is, it's kinda squicking me out.

[kmsumrall]

Well, meteors were coming down on people who played sburb, At least initially.

[temporalMessiah]

Well, meteors were coming down on people who played sburb, At least initially.

[devilsadvocate]I'm pretty sure those still came from the game.[/devilsadvocate]

[kmsumrall]

Well, meteors were coming down on people who played sburb, At least initially.

[devilsadvocate]I'm pretty sure those still came from the game.[/devilsadvocate]

I just was saying that they were like beacons. Doesn't explain the troll session, though.

[temporalMessiah]

Beacons? Explain, please.

[kmsumrall]

I havnt really read though this thread so I'm not sure what has been said, but my thought was that when a person played the game, it activated a signal of sorta. Sburb locked onto that signal for a place to throw a meteor, which is why most of them hit highly populated areas. it was indicated by other people writing walkthroughs that more than the main 4 had played.
The baby meteors could have been directed by whoever had preset the ecto machine in the first place, but that goes even further into speculation.

[sjasogun]

S___B creates a whole new universe at the cost of a single planet with sapient life on it. Not such a big price, it seems.

[newGenesis]

How exactly?

On second thought, I don't even need to break or rewrite them!

I just need to transcend every limitations, be able to ignore all rules! How? I need to go thoroughly through the game to know that!

And if there isn't a way?

And rewriting the cosmic law is impossible.

Bad news. They do this every freaking time in Homestuck. We're still talking about Homestuck, aren't we?

Not really. They exploit loopholes, just as Sburb exploits a loophole in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. But out-and-out breaking the rules? Give me one good example.

It's not meaningless just because we don't know why it happens. It could be completely required.

No, no. Not the game. The whole "meteoring sentient beings to oblivion" thing is uncalled for.

OK, as temporalMessiah helpfully pointed out above, the meteors are from the Reckoning, which is triggered not by Skaia, but by the Black King. Skaia creates portals to protect itself. Apparently those portals can only point at the players' home planet. Why? We don't know. There's a lot about the game where "why" is not something we are privy to. Why have players at all? Why can't the game create the new universe on its own, if it's so powerful? Why is there always a new instance of Derse that's hellbent on stopping creation - does that happen as a response to Skaia, or does Skaia create Derse itself each time, in order to challenge the players - and again we don't know why there are players. The whole thing simply is. This is how it functions. And that function creates a net positive end result: a universe at the cost of a planet (and the planet is repopulated by Exiles anyway).

What you're saying is basically the equivalent of someone with no knowledge of mechanical engineering looking at a car, noticing that it needs fuel to run, and saying, "Hey, you know what would be better? If you didn't need fuel to power the car, and instead it just ran by itself, perpetually! It's so simple, why has nobody thought of this before." Real helpful. All you're seeing is the cost, a negative result, with no comprehension of why that cost exists.

I mean, really. Are you just trolling at this point, or what?

[Nokob]

It's possible that the game doesn't require the extinction of a species. The only reason the trolls were wiped out was because of Gl'bgolyb, who was a "sentience-warming gift" from Scratch. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that a species could survive by evacuating everyone from the planet. If so, then the game seems sort of like a volcano: it's a source of new potential that's dangerous and can kill people, but it's just a hazard; it's not sacrificing anyone. Unless it's sentient, that is. If it's sentient, it's got some explaining to do.

[sjasogun]

It does for the individuals that are affected by the destruction, yes. But those deaths are just trivia compared to the bigger picture, the reproduction of universes. Yes, S___B is ruthless but it has to be for it's purpose.

[Nokob]

What you're saying is basically the equivalent of someone with no knowledge of mechanical engineering looking at a car, noticing that it needs fuel to run, and saying, "Hey, you know what would be better? If you didn't need fuel to power the car, and instead it just ran by itself, perpetually! It's so simple, why has nobody thought of this before." Real helpful. All you're seeing is the cost, a negative result, with no comprehension of why that cost exists.

I mean, really. Are you just trolling at this point, or what?

I think they're saying that the cost isn't worth it; it would be better if it didn't need fuel, but since it does it's better to just not use it in the first place.

[temporalMessiah]

Actually, on that note, why AM I making this comparison? True though it is, it's kinda squicking me out.

Sorry about that. Anyway, cosmic morality? Really? If existence has a conscience, then it's the biggest and greatest douchebag of all times, universes, realities and paradoxes!

You're still thinking in terms of human morality. Let me level with you here: You aren't even a fraction of the size of the universe. Hell, let's scale the universe down to human size. A blue whale, at 80 feet, isn't even subatomic in comparison. A bowhead whale, living for 200 years, doesn't even last a second compared to the universe. The universe can't be considered immoral for "thinking" of any individual lifeform as nothing, because quite frankly, in comparison, any individual lifeform pretty much IS nothing. There's nothing immoral about human reproduction in spite of the billions of sperm that die off every time a baby is conceived because, frankly, we're too big to care.

[reignonyourparade]

The game is not all powerful. If it was all powerful, it wouldn't need to negotiate with the horror-terrors. it's quite likely that basically every unpleasant aspect of the game is a concession that has been made to the horrorterrors.

[Wessolf27]

What you're saying is basically the equivalent of someone with no knowledge of mechanical engineering looking at a car, noticing that it needs fuel to run, and saying, "Hey, you know what would be better? If you didn't need fuel to power the car, and instead it just ran by itself, perpetually! It's so simple, why has nobody thought of this before." Real helpful. All you're seeing is the cost, a negative result, with no comprehension of why that cost exists.

I mean, really. Are you just trolling at this point, or what?

I think they're saying that the cost isn't worth it; it would be better if it didn't need fuel, but since it does it's better to just not use it in the first place.

Yes, but then what do you get when you sacrifice all this? You'd lose something of great potential. You'd also lose the chance to develop and reconstruct the engine so that it can use alternative fuel and/or even lesser fuel to the point that fuel would be needed at the barest minimum, or even not at all. And in that case, there would be a future where there would be no need for fuel and it can simply exist on its own.

@safetyboots: I have to reiterate what everyone else has said. It is the Black King himself who is directing the meteors towards the planet at certain strategic points, not Skaia. If anything at all, the only reason that Skaia does such a thing is because it needs to defend itself.

Again, please note the difference between amoral and immoral. Amoral means that it has no capacity to have any values or morals. Immoral means that the person recognizes the aspects of morality and intentionally perverts them. Of which I don't see with the production of SBURB.

Another thing is that SBURB doesn't wholly destroy a civilization. It replaces it with the Carapace people, and the survivors of the old civilization has a great chance to regrow and renew in the case that they wish to propagate into the new universe, who is to say that there is a chance that there is a planet just made for the survivors of the previous session? That they would be able to rebuild in this new universe and live out their lives and the lives of many generations from there.

Also, please do note that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is in full effect in every universe. The eventual heat death will cause everything to collapse with no chance of creating a new potential to divert the need for the incipisphere, a chance to be able to create a universe without the need for SBURB

(also safteyboots, you might want to consider tackling the WHOLE of the statement rather than just taking bits and pieces of them, this is a big problem with your method of debate as you won't be addressing the key flaws that you see in their statements. As I can see you're just repeating your statement without any given example as to give a reconciliation of your point.)

EDIT: Also, how can you be over "everything"? How can you call yourself to be above existence and above the laws of the universe? You're comparing yourself to an omnipotent god, separate from the whole of reality. We are humans, in the end of everything, we are bound to work within the laws of the universe, to subvert and pervert them is to cause everything to fall into chaos and disarray. (I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I cannot back down this statement)

[Nokob]

What you're saying is basically the equivalent of someone with no knowledge of mechanical engineering looking at a car, noticing that it needs fuel to run, and saying, "Hey, you know what would be better? If you didn't need fuel to power the car, and instead it just ran by itself, perpetually! It's so simple, why has nobody thought of this before." Real helpful. All you're seeing is the cost, a negative result, with no comprehension of why that cost exists.

I mean, really. Are you just trolling at this point, or what?

I think they're saying that the cost isn't worth it; it would be better if it didn't need fuel, but since it does it's better to just not use it in the first place.

Yes, but then what do you get when you sacrifice all this? You'd lose something of great potential. You'd also lose the chance to develop and reconstruct the engine so that it can use alternative fuel and/or even lesser fuel to the point that fuel would be needed at the barest minimum, or even not at all. And in that case, there would be a future where there would be no need for fuel and it can simply exist on its own.

Yeah, this is what I'm not sure about. I wouldn't consider the loss of a civilized planet for a universe to be a good trade (an even one, perhaps, but not one that I'd take). But a civilized planet for infinite universes (when you don't already have infinite universes, of course)? That's harder. It's very comforting to think that, whatever happens, there's the chance for improval later on. That things will keep happening. The end of everything is fine if it's inevitable, but it's depressing if you had a way to stop it and you didn't take it. On the other hand, the cost is people's lives. That's a huge cost. In the end, I just can't decide.

safetyboots: I have to reiterate what everyone else has said. It is the Black King himself who is directing the meteors towards the planet at certain strategic points, not Skaia. If anything at all, the only reason that Skaia does such a thing is because it needs to defend itself.

Also, please do note that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is in full effect in every universe. The eventual heat death will cause everything to collapse with no chance of creating a new potential to divert the need for the incipisphere, a chance to be able to create a universe without the need for SBURB

We don't actually know either of these. In fact, you could interpret Doc Scratch saying "[Lord English's] very existence in a universe will mean it will inevitably be torn apart" to mean that universes don't die unless they're killed. It's a bit of a stretch, of course.

Another thing is that SBURB doesn't wholly destroy a civilization. It replaces it with the Carapace people, and the survivors of the old civilization has a great chance to regrow and renew in the case that they wish to propagate into the new universe, who is to say that there is a chance that there is a planet just made for the survivors of the previous session? That they would be able to rebuild in this new universe and live out their lives and the lives of many generations from there.

The problem isn't the destruction of the civilization, it's the destruction of the people.

[temporalMessiah]

The problem isn't the destruction of the civilization, it's the destruction of the people.

There's a moral question out there. Let me ask it.

You are at a marathon, watching the runners at a hill. Suddenly, a nearby hot dog cart jostles loose and is looking to kill 10 racers. It's moving too fast and is too heavy to just drag to a stop, but if you could divert its path, it would save the runners, which you can do. Problem is, doing so would kill 3 spectators. What do you do?

That's pretty much the quandry here, too.

I know it very well, and hearing that from someone else annoys me a fair bit.

No you don't know it. If you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You'd lose something of great potential.

Let me tell something, being of little faith! This small planet may have more potential than the rest of the universe!

And what potential is that? And don't answer "Life," because frankly, that will end one day if an out like Sburb doesn't come along.

Even if it hadn't, and I will repeat myself again, anything that DEMANDS (can't repeat this word enough) sacrifice doesn't deserve to exist. If it NEEDS (something completely preposterous in the case of meteors, kid players and the game itself) sacrifice, then I have no objections IF (and only if) a better alternative is sought.

Anything that requires sacrifice doesn't deserve existance? Okay. What would happen if we stopped sacrificing the lives of countless plants and animals to the whim of your own stomach? YOU'D STARVE. Do you not deserve to exist? I can't imagine anyone feels that way.

[Wessolf27]

You're still just taking bits and pieces of what you want to hear... :/

I probably have to agree that there is a chance for the natives of the planet don't need to create SBURB in order to create a universe, however, let's say that we are in a world where SBURB exists. How would you go about knowing that a game has a potential to cause so much destruction towards a single planet without playing it? How would you be able to know what the game does if you haven't played it at all? Because only the people who have entered the Medium would have been briefed on the matter of what it does. And furthermore, unless you have a dreamself or even if you have a dreamself, it's not very likely that you would instantly be able to arrive at the conclusion that the whole of the incipisphere was designed to create universes at the expense of a planet. Skaian Clouds would give you glimpses, but these don't even tell you what the context of the situation is. Jade made a present because she saw Dream!John awake and sad in Skaia, but she didn't know that before all that, giving the gift itself would have caused Jack Noir to ascend and cause the whole thing to happen.

If you blame the creators of S___B, don't, it is stated that software of SBURB only serves as a gateway to the incipisphere where the creation of the universe takes place, furthermore, the game does not create the incipisphere or Skaia. The incipisphere is already exists outside the flow of time of the universe, outside any notion that they are digital programs. The Black King is not a construct of the game, rather, the Black King is a living sentient being acting out the sort of things he thinks he must do, which is to cause the destruction of universes or the creative potential of Skaia, so in any way, it is him who is the cause for Skaia to force itself to open its defense portals to defend itself. The Carapace People are living sentient creatures that act out the roles that they believe they should perform. Echeladders, captchaloguing, and perhaps even alchemy, boondollars and fraymotifs exist independently of SBURB.

In any case, the incipisphere has always existed. Jade had a dreamself who was awake even before the game was being created. That would be another proof that the incipisphere is an existing reality within the universe and not a construct of the game.

EDIT:

What do you do?

I love you. Really. That's why I like to discuss. Ideas flows easily.

Unless I'm some kind of american superhero, there is no way to calculate the casualties. Anyway, subjective question deserves a subjective response. I would try my best, even if it killed me. I would feel devastated by the death of someone, maybe even blame myself and curse my helplessness. However, I wouldn't do that for others. I would do that for me, for what I believe. Can't get cooler than this.

Anyway, that's a sadistic choice! You should feel bad for such cheap and overused cliche!

But that's a cliche that certainly has a chance of happening within our lives, does that mean that the act of it having a very real chance of happening is a cliche?

[Nokob]

The problem isn't the destruction of the civilization, it's the destruction of the people.

There's a moral question out there. Let me ask it.

You are at a marathon, watching the runners at a hill. Suddenly, a nearby hot dog cart jostles loose and is looking to kill 10 racers. It's moving too fast and is too heavy to just drag to a stop, but if you could divert its path, it would save the runners, which you can do. Problem is, doing so would kill 3 spectators. What do you do?

That's pretty much the quandry here, too.

My answer: Try to find a third option that doesn't kill anyone.

My answer to the moral dilemma the question is asking: Do nothing. I'm not going to kill some people to save others' lives, given that they're people I know nothing about.

What I would actually do: Probably freeze up or something. But hopefully try to stop it I guess? Also try to yell at the racers to get out of the way.

Not really sure what this has to do with what you quoted; all I was saying there was that the fact that the exiles will rebuild civilisation on the planet and the players will be able to repopulate their species doesn't make the initial destruction any more excusable, in my view at least. I guess it's applicable to the discussion in general though.

[reignonyourparade]

Let us start by assuming that the end of everything in a whimper of entropy is an unacceptable result. Given that, you want some method of universal reproduction. And then you have beings opposed to creation, the horror-terrors who demand a compromise, which is at the very least twofold: first that the new universe is not a right, it is a reward, and it must be won through trial and hardship; second the opportunity to influence proceedings through derse. Is it that unbelievable that it will be a threefold compromise, demanding a price for the proceedings? The destruction of a species and civilization.
When should the reproduction, and thus destruction, happen? If you place it at the end of the universe, any surviving intelligent beings are likely loaded into computers, thinking the same thoughts over and over in a desperate bid to escape entropy. Obviously they need to at least HAVE computers. If you wait, you're just killing MORE people at once as population expands. So do it as soon as the technology exists and no sooner, if you want to kill as little people as possible.

Given the desire to propagate universes and the conditions that horrorterrors have likely pressed, s___b is doing as little evil as possible. The worst you can say of it is that it has different priorities than you.

[Wessolf27]

I also have to add that if Prospit did win and win before the Reckoning, then there wouldn't have been any meteors to have fallen into Skaia and eventually to the planet where the game was being played. But that also means that there will be no one to have the capacity or ability to create the universes because the very people who are supposed to create them don't exist at all.

Therefore Prospit concedes itself to inevitability. It knows it must be defeated in order for the Reckoning to happen and in that way, there will be a good chance to create a universe.

EDIT: Nannasprite? Really? Would she even be able to speak to you at all before the game? Would she even exist at all in the first place? Even then, you're not John Egbert. And Nannasprite only know about the effects of the incipisphere because she was prototyped with an object that belonged from the incipisphere.

[Nokob]

I probably have to agree that there is a chance for the natives of the planet don't need to create SBURB in order to create a universe, however, let's say that we are in a world where SBURB exists. How would you go about knowing that a game has a potential to cause so much destruction towards a single planet without playing it? How would you be able to know what the game does if you haven't played it at all?

The players who created your universe. Of course, they have to find your civilization before it's destroyed, but they might be able to do that easily, depending on what sort of powers and whatnot they have.

If you blame the creators of S___B, don't, it is stated that software of SBURB only serves as a gateway to the incipisphere where the creation of the universe takes place, furthermore, the game does not create the incipisphere or Skaia. The incipisphere is already exists outside the flow of time of the universe, outside any notion that they are digital programs. The Black King is not a construct of the game, rather, the Black King is a living sentient being acting out the sort of things he thinks he must do, which is to cause the destruction of universes or the creative potential of Skaia, so in any way, it is him who is the cause for Skaia to force itself to open its defense portals to defend itself. The Carapace People are living sentient creatures that act out the roles that they believe they should perform. Echeladders, captchaloguing, and perhaps even alchemy, boondollars and fraymotifs exist independently of SBURB.

In any case, the incipisphere has always existed. Jade had a dreamself who was awake even before the game was being created. That would be another proof that the incipisphere is an existing reality within the universe and not a construct of the game.

From that same page you linked:

NANNASPRITE: […] The software that brought you here was merely a mechanism that served as a gateway! Its routines in a way served to invoke this realm's instance

Emphasis mine.

And the carapacians being sentient beings doesn't stop them from being game constructs. If the meteors are the Black King's fault and the game created him for the purpose of being an antagonistic force and unleashing those meteors, surely it shares the responsibility for them.