League of Legends: I Play Thread 2 as a Jungler

[Softspoken]

That was me buying Frozen Heart first because oh hey they have lots of physical attackers, I'll probably need the armor from this.

Whether or not this was effective, I love you for doing it.

[WillyDeWulfe]

Are there any replays of Homestuck teams fighting, preferably with commentary or Skype chats? I had this sort of vision of a bunch of Homestuckers doing lets-plays/troll-matches/etc and making references the whole time, and since I don't think I'll be around enough to coordinate a team myself, I'd like to see if anyone else has already made one.

[Flamerider64]

While I'd love to participate in some random matches among us, I do play on EU West servers, and I'm pretty sure the majority of you aren't anywhere near there.

I'd really love to though, because I'm losing the majority of my normal matches these days.

[WillyDeWulfe]

So my main is Maokai because months ago just a little after he was released I bought him and decided killing people by chucking babies at them was THE BEST. Then I learned to jungle and got not terrible, though that meant less exploding babies.

So I want some help with my jungle Mao build if you guys don't mind:

Start with Regrowth Pend/HPot and do a full jungle round
RPend into Philo Stone and probably buy a ward
Basic Boots
Ruby Crystal/HoG asap
Build a Catalyst
Boots to Merc Treads
Warmogs...This is usually as far as I get

After that I'm not sure what to do next. Eventually I upgrade the Philo Stone into Shurleya's and the Catalyst into RoA. I'll probably get FoN if it's a heavy AP team or I feel like going fast. If it's several AD Carries, Thornmail. Lastly I turn HoG into Randuin's

Let's review my final build:
Shurleya's, Merc Treads, Randuin's, RoA, FoN, Thornmail(?)

Thing is I rarely get RoA until the end, because I feel Mao doesn't benefit enough from AP unless he's built AP, and because of the way RoA works that seems like a waste. Is there something else I should be building that gives me mana, health, and maybe some defense? Not BVeil because spell shield isn't very good on Mao.

I'm not sure there's anything better to stick in than FoN because it's pretty good and Mao needs all the help he can get for MR. Yet somehow I'm not sure the Health Regen matters because I have Shurleya's, Randuin's, and Mao's passive already.

Thornmail...eh. I've got decent armor already (Mao's base, Flat Armor Seals, Randuin's). Maybe the passive is good but it seems situational.

So my questions: Is there something better than RoA for mana/health, is there something that could replace FoN, and is Thornmail worth getting if the whole other team isn't AD carries?

[dynamicEquilibrium]

The main point of advice I would give you is that Maokai has enormous base hp, and with HoG and catalyst you have as much hp as any tank other than shen or volibear really needs
It would be better to start building armor, MR, and especially ARMOR as soon as you have HoG
otherwise AD carries can shred through your 3k hp in only one second more than it would take if you had 2k hp

[Primate]

Definitely work frozen heart somewhere into your build. Frozen heart's passive helps tremendously against AD carries, and the stats it gives (mana, armor, cdr) are all things that Maokai loves.

[Milskidasith]

That's a very confusing and inefficient build. It's inefficient because getting a Warmogs at the 10k in items mark is just... awful and your CDR (not much of it) comes very late, along with a late RoA. Catalyst is also meaningless if you're not laning or rushing a RoA; it's pretty much just the solo mid "this lane turns into a farm/gankoff" item. Warmogs is also usually only good, especially after the nerfs from a few months ago, on people who scale with health in some way or do want to build for the most effective HP possible, which you aren't and don't. AP scaling is not at all dependent on having a lot of AP; Mao scales very well with any amount of AP; only a deathcap and characters that really need to kill people in one burst (generally guys who rush deathcap) rely on mass AP to become effective.

My suggestion for changing that build pretty much relies on entirely uprooting it (pun intended) and redoing the build. As Mao, you're generally either going to want to focus on being supporting and tanky with CDR, or getting tanky AP items and CDR if you want to be a bit more carry-ish. Building him pure tank with essentially no CDR, AP, or team supporting items doesn't help anybody, not even you, since your jungle clear will pretty rapidly slow down. Philo start jungling is still reasonable, especially because it's cheaper on pots than getting armor to start. If you want a RoA, you should rush that, but I don't recommend it. My recommended items:

Frozen Heart. Seriously, why wouldn't you get this item? Armor efficient, a bit more mana which helps, massive CDR, and the attack speed slow is huge and you're already in the middle of the enemy team. It's way, way better than thornmail. Glacial Shroud should probably be a rush, especially if they're physical heavy.

Mercs. Because Mercs are generally awesome.

Turning Philo into Shurelyia's. Pretty early helps out in a lot of ways if you remember the active.

Void Staff. Great MR item in pretty much all ways, and it makes your spells hit a lot harder.

After that the last slots are pretty much open. If you still want to get a RoA, you need to rush it, but I don't feel like rushing it works well on Mao because he's more about setting up plays and having other people get the kills, which needs CDR, while as an example, Morg can get RoA and still be threatening because her spells still hit hard with the delay in AP and early CDR doesn't benefit her ability to keep the enemy locked down as much as it does on Mao. Aegis is a good choice, as is Randuin's. In basically no situation is Thornmail ever an efficient item, and Warmogs is only good in a few cases. If you really feel you need even more effective health against physical characters, you can go sunfire, but that's also inefficient. In general, no character in League can sustain stacking just defensive items, and there are plenty of incredibly impressive combination offense+defense items (Wriggle's, Maw, Zhonya's, Void), so if you're a tanky character you're going to want to get one of those items.

[WillyDeWulfe]

Ok great tips guys!

The thing about Mao is he DOES scale with HP. His passive restores 7% max health after 5 abilities are used near him and he uses a basic attack. I want to keep this, but I don't know if I have room.

Instead of RoA, I'm thinking Soul Shroud. The Mana Regen should help replace the mana from RoA, The Health is great, and it's got CDR. Plus aura so it help in team-fights. I've heard that some people think this is inefficient, but it appears to work well on Mao.

So screw Thornmail, I'll stick Frozen Heart in there.

New Build (Bold final items):
RePen, PhiloStone, Boots, HoG, Merc Treads, Mana Manipulator, Soul Shroud, Shurleya's, Glacial Shroud, FoN, Frozen Heart, Randuin's

If I build Glacial Shroud instead of Mana Manipulator, that might take care of my mana issues too, which means I should build an HP/AP item instead of Soul Shroud. Let me think...

NEW New Build:
RePen, PhiloStone, Boots, HoG, Merc Treads, Glacial Shroud, Shurleya's, Blasting Wand, Abyssal Scepter, Frozen Heart, FoN, Randuin's

[Milskidasith]

The thing about Mao is he DOES scale with HP. His passive restores 7% max health after 5 abilities are used near him and he uses a basic attack. I want to keep this, but I don't know if I have room.

That was rude, but you are not correct. He scales with effective HP, which is a combination of HP and resists. There are very few people who truly scale with HP; it's honestly just those with exceptional base resists where pure HP scales up effective HP incredibly quickly (Rammus, Shyvana, sort of Graves), and then Olaf and Shen and maybe a couple others I forgot who actually gain more from pure HP than effective HP. Most anything that scales "based on HP" (including Mundo, besides the fact that HP is incredibly insignificantly more valuable than resists for his EHP because his abilities cost the same HP no matter what) is actually based on effective HP. Unless you scale on actual HP or need to truly have the most effective HP possible, Warmogs will generally not be especially beneficial; in general characters that don't have active taunt mechanisms or significant reasons may want to be tanky, but they do so while getting utility from items instead of just getting stuff that's purely tanky.

Instead of RoA, I'm thinking Soul Shroud. The Mana Regen should help replace the mana from RoA, The Health is great, and it's got CDR. Plus aura so it help in team-fights. I've heard that some people think this is inefficient, but it appears to work well on Mao.

Nope, it's terrible.

New Build (Bold final items):
RePen, PhiloStone, Boots, HoG, Merc Treads, Mana Manipulator, Soul Shroud, Shurleya's, Glacial Shroud, FoN, Frozen Heart, Randuin's

If I build Glacial Shroud instead of Mana Manipulator, that might take care of my mana issues too, which means I should build an HP/AP item instead of Soul Shroud. Let me think...

Still bad. Soul Shroud is an awful item in general and especially bad on a character that shouldn't have significant mana issues to begin with and isn't laning with somebody to make the mana manipulator worthwhile. Your total CDR, depending on your mastery build, is significantly higher than 40%, which is the max, meaning that many of your items (especially the already worthless soul shroud) are not being used to their full potential. You go glacial shroud incredibly late despite the fact it's an early game mana boost and HP boost. And you build six items, which is just silly in general; there's no character that has a full six item build that works every game; it's very much based on what your team needs and what's going on in the game.

Again:

Philo jungle start.
Mercs, Glacial, and Shurelya's are your rush items.
Frozen Heart and Abyssal (if I said void earlier, I meant abyssal; I get the names confused for some reason) are your late core. I'd always go frozen, but abyssal may be unnecessary if your team has a carrier and they're not significantly AP based.
Build defensive or damaging from there.

EDIT: New build: FoN is a luxury item; I would not finish it before frozen heart. If you truly need the MR early, buy the negatron. Finishing it up is nice for the speed and the passive regen (note: Still based on effective HP, not max HP, for effectiveness), but between the relatively similar amounts of cash needed to finish up a frozen heart from a glacial and finish up a FoN from a negatron, the frozen heart is by far the better item choice in almost any situation.

[WillyDeWulfe]

Alright. I realized almost as soon as I posted that Soul Shroud is completely unnecessary because the Glacial Shroud covers the mana. Changed that to Abyssal.

Also changed the order to finish FH before FoN. I wanted that passive +8% move, but if I already have Shurelya's I should be moving quickly enough. Also, since Mao has relatively bad MR for a tanky character late game (flat 30), I'm always afraid of getting nuked by a caster.

Also I hold off on Randuins because I don't want to lose that gp10. Is that dumb? Should I try to get it earlier?

[Milskidasith]

Honestly, it's probably best to look at the enemy team early to see if a Randuin's is really an appropriate item. It's OK but not amazing, and your sixth slot and probably fifth items should pretty much always be flexible on any character.

[dynamicEquilibrium]

You actually have to think really carefully about distribution of item slots on Maokai, because he's one of the people who can actually get to full build or 5/6 pretty often
It's simply not worth it to use up a slot on a cheap item like Soul Shroud because you will need the slot for other things
and most of the time upgrading HoG isn't worth it either, better to sell and buy a stronger item
same applies to Philo Stone unless you upgrade it very early on, because Shurelya's becomes increasingly insignificant the longer the game goes on and can only swing things if they're super close to begin with

[Milskidasith]

The shurelyia's movespeed boost is actually relevant at nearly all points in the game, and Maokai's jungle slows down with time and he isn't really a huge lane farmer; I honestly don't see him getting a full build of lategame items in the majority of games, even if his items are only averaging at like 2.5k (and boots) instead of the 3k you'd see on a carry. There's no real reason for maokai specifically to be better at getting a full build than anybody else; the closest thing I can think of would be comparing him to Nunu, who happens to (besides not itemizing well to begin with) have severe cash flow issues later in the game.

[Karhs12]

So yeah I unlocked Tryndamere the other day and played a vs bots game as him mid.
20/2/7
Both of those deaths were from one of Sona's attacks hitting me right after my ult ended while I was leaving the area.
Also, Spinning through an enemy to hit them with a full-force taunt is wonderful.

[Milskidasith]

Bot games: Where you can stomp with pretty much anybody if you know what you're doing and how to exploit them. Well, they're actually a lot smarter now, but it's still not difficult to solo most of the bots that aren't combo-based, though their ability to perfectly stop any combo keeps them from being useful practice in a lot of cases (for instance, you can't actually fight bots with LB like you can fight even good players, because they can and will always land a spell in the time between you casting silence and instantly blinking to proc the silence.

[Primate]

I think the only time I've ever played Trynd has been in ARAMs. He was fun for those, but I never really feel like playing him on SR.

[dynamicEquilibrium]

So the mid-July patch is finally out, although Zyra didn't come to the party

I'm really pumped to jungle eve now
and I have to say new twitch almost feels like a nerf, just because of one thing: they cut the duration of his cloak by 80% but kept 100% of the fade time
his cloak would be a freaking awesome ability if it just didn't have that enormous fade time attached, but as it is, at low ranks of ambush you spend as much time fading as you do actually cloaked

[Primate]

Reworks aside, I'm probably most happy about the Malzahar and Gangplank stuff. Two of my more preferred champs getting QoL fixes always makes for a good patch.

[dynamicEquilibrium]

Gangplank's wasn't a "quality of life" fix as much as a "there is now no limit to how much you can parrley at any stage of the game" fix


also, since you can no longer lock eve to make people drop queue, Riot was kind enough to provide devoted urgot players with another queue-dropping option
Urgot's Q lost 20% of its range in exchange for a "buff" that turns it into something approximating a tickle in lane and doesn't even break even with the previous damage until you have 159 BONUS attack damage, his E lost a solid 50 range and had the cooldown raised by 50% at level 1, basically forcing you to level it first if you want to use it at all, and his ultimate, which already gives you something like half the armor of last month, lost a full QUARTER of its range at rank 1
and all this is on someone who was already drastically underpicked and only considered viable for certain extreme countering situations in ranked

there is some silver lining, though
since your ult is now less powerful than most passives, you can simply not take it at level 6, giving you another level to put into Corrosive Charge to lower its cooldown

[Primate]

and all this is on someone who was already drastically underpicked and only considered viable for certain extreme countering situations in ranked

Urgot was actually considered OP/high-priority pick or ban for higher-elo/professional play, mainly because laning against him was a gigantic pain in the ass, and if he had good coordination with his jungler and support, he could get easy kills every time his ult came off cd. He definitely deserved a nerf, although riot does feel that they may have overdone it with the Q changes.

[Milskidasith]

There's also the fact that, while they don't balance for Dominion, Urgot was, to put it mildly, fucked up and probably *more than* DotA style overpowered in botlane on Dominion.

[dynamicEquilibrium]

Everyone complains about how Urgot's lane phase is OP and just completely ignores that he has no lategame aside from his ult
Yes, if you were so fantastically skilled that you could land one of the slowest AOE skillshots in the game every time it cooled down you were basically guaranteed to win your lane, but if your opponent is so awful that they can't dodge an attack that takes half a second to land, I'd consider it fair that you get to beat someone far less skilled than you in lane in return for having no lategame

And as for his ult.... uh....
every support who is played in more than 2% of games can interrupt it, and Sona's the only one who even needs an ult to do so
it only gives you a guaranteed kill if you have coordination with your teammates and the enemy support has no clue what they're doing

I guess my point is that highly skilled Urgot players were brutally powerful in lane, but if you were anything like as good as them it wasn't much of a problem because you just took a minor disadvantage in return for an astronomically stronger lategame
Hell, I used to stomp the shit out of enemy ADC urgots playing PRE-BUFF TWITCH in bot lane
Riot just seems to have this policy of removing all the champs who become dominant if you invest a ton of time and skill into them, and leaving the untouchable metagolems who anyone can carry with in their first game completely alone
They never nerf things like the Jungle God Trinity, or Olaf, or Kennen, who can dominate something like 80% of opposing picks at an equal skill level, but they crush anyone with the capabilities to outplay their opponents with superior prediction, timing, and teamwork

[Primate]

every support who is played in more than 2% of games can interrupt it, and Sona's the only one who even needs an ult to do so
it only gives you a guaranteed kill if you have coordination with your teammates and the enemy support has no clue what they're doing

Then you target the support, since most AD carries can't do shit to stop you, and can't stick around 1v2 against an urgot lane.

Yes, if you were so fantastically skilled that you could land one of the slowest AOE skillshots in the game every time it cooled down you were basically guaranteed to win your lane, but if your opponent is so awful that they can't dodge an attack that takes half a second to land, I'd consider it fair that you get to beat someone far less skilled than you in lane in return for having no lategame

You are ignoring that urgot also has a support. Partner with taric, alistar, leona (anyone with cc really), and suddenly your opponent has a very hard time dodging your E.

Riot just seems to have this policy of removing all the champs who become dominant if you invest a ton of time and skill into them, and leaving the untouchable metagolems who anyone can carry with in their first game completely alone
They never nerf things like the Jungle God Trinity, or Olaf, or Kennen, who can dominate something like 80% of opposing picks at an equal skill level, but they crush anyone with the capabilities to outplay their opponents with superior prediction, timing, and teamwork

While riot does have a vested interest in bringing down champs that prove to be too powerful in professional play, even if they aren't picked up by the majority playerbase (orianna, Ap kog, and now Urgot come to mind), they definitely do balance the "metagolem" champs. About a year ago, they cleaned house on bruisers, with Jarvan and Irelia in particular receiving repeated nerfs. Gangplank was stupid strong post-rework, but has now been nerfed over time to the point where he's being re-buffed. More recently, Jax, Mundo, and Malphite have all been brought down.

[curiousCat]

Xin got crazy, tho'.

[Milskidasith]

Also, I don't get why there is the statement that Urgot has no lategame. His lategame was, in fact, fantastically strong as a tanky DPS champion and he was fully capable of beating up most tanky DPS champs in a straight up fight (not super relevant, but his damage output and tankiness were there), and his ability to single out a target in fights for his team was incredibly significant. Sure, he wasn't as good as some of them, but with a good early game and a significantly powerful lategame that also decreased the damage whoever you were focusing could do to your team, he was very good, and the armor reduction he had was good as well.

And yes, *please* make the argument that "every skillshot ever is incredibly easy to dodge." That's such a great argument. I mean, if they're so easy to dodge, why not just make Urgot's E instakill people?

I don't disagree that the Urgot nerfs went too far, Dynamic, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about when you act as if Urgot is incredibly weak, or that metagolem champs haven't been nerfed. Hell, I don't even know who the "jungle god trinity" is anymore, because all the exceptional junglers I can think of (Udyr, Lee Sin, Skarner, Mundo, Shyvana) all have weaknesses and many of them have been nerfed (In order for weaknesses: Reliant on other people to set up ganks and extremely susceptible to kiting in teamfights, scales badly without successful early ganks and has been nerfed, severely mana intensive even lategame and relies on other people to set up ganks, jungles low enough invasion is easy and hasn't been around as a jungler nearly long enough to be part of the big three, scales meh for the lategame). They're not bad, but they're not blatently overpowered.

Just to prove a point: Let's look at the champions you've listed as "winning 80% of the time with equal skill and stomping with even a minor skill advantage" (which is obviously false to begin with, but we'll see how false it is) compared to Urgot, using stats from Lolstatistics (I don't have a better source, unfortunately). Note also that there are far more champions (and more played champions) with W/L rates of above 1.00, which means that there's a flaw in the data that trends upwards.

Olaf: W/L rate of 1.01. So... completely middle of the road if not below average. That's pretty much my experience with him, too; he's feast or famine, susceptible to the lane/jungle matchup, and if the enemy team can melt his bulk even reasonably quickly he doesn't have anything he can do. Note that Olaf was also nerfed INCREDIBLY hard when his ult was changed, which was fairly recently.

Kennen: W/L rate of 1.17. Pretty good. Kennen is probably powerful, but a win rate or 54% isn't that absurd when the data is skewed uwpards.

Lee Sin: 1.03 W/L. Accounting for being skewed upward: Not good.

Skarner: 1.33 W/L. Very good.

Udyr: 1.27. Good.

Shyvana: 1.20. Meh.

Mundo: 1.12. Meh-er.

Urgot: 1.44, making him the seventh most winning champion in LoLstatistics. Meaning that Urgot, in fact, was winning far more games than any of the champions you listed (half of whom were not even doing well before you consider the fact that the data from lolstatistics is screwed up, but I'm assuming it's screwed up consistently).