How Do You Kill Lord English?

[magnetoHydroDynamics]

If I were to kill lord english, I think I would first of all ascend upwards in the Structure and bind me some Power in, say, 153+8D space.
Then I would lower myself to something just outside the usual 3.5+1D universe and just change the laws of physics to not permit LE to exist.
It LE would have any objections to that, I would simply use my superior Dimensionality, Intellect and Power to eradicate him.

Fine Structure

[demosthenes2k8]

magnetoHydroDynamics, I'm amazed that someone else has actually read that. Although, good luck getting out after that. He's probably much higher than you.

[PaladinFoster]

You can't kill Lord English. He's the embodiment of entropy, an inescapable aspect of the universe itself. Killing Lord English is comparable to killing time or gravity.

That's as good of a guess as any, but I really don't think the story so far has suggested such a thing at all. I personally thing he's just a really powerful entity who eats universes. Also, the story itself has outright stated that he is only killable through spacetime glitches. (But it has also outright stated that he's indestructible, so...?)

Who knows, you could still be right. There's been so little information dropped on Lord English so far that any guess is fair game. (Wait, that's another thread, d'oh.)

My guess has always been that John channels the creative energy of Skaia itself to gain the power to fight LE, but that's a bit Deus Ex Machina-ish. I really like OP's idea, though.

I always hear references to Deus Ex Machina, but I NEVER UNDERSTAND THEM.

Deus Ex Machina is Latin for "God in the Machine." It comes from Greek and Roman plays where a god would literally be lowered onstage with a machine and would solve all the problems and unresolved issues. In modern fiction, it usually refers to some force outside the main plot coming in and resolving the conflict. Arguably, if the main characters have little or not hand in plot resolution, you could possibly consider that a Deus Ex Machina as well. It can be pretty subjective, but if the resolution is especially unsatisfying and smacks of
cop-out", you might be more prone to calling it Deus Ex Machina.

(Sorry if I sounded a bit condescending, there. I just went off of the assumption you've never heard of the concept before.)

More info from our friends at TVTropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../DeusExMachina

And I always thought it had something to do with that videogame. Thanks for the info.

[Diffractor]

Well, I think I will make 4 plans total.
The first, involving the exploding multi-dimensional time fractal black hole, has the flaw of only working if there is only one Lord English. If there are multiple Lord English's from alternate timelines, it won't work.
The second, involving bashing the server with the Lord English code with the crowbar, or having Oglogoth eat it, has the flaw of only working if that server code is the only way to summon Lord English into a universe. It fails if there are multiple ways of summoning Lord English.
The third plan will be presented here, and the fourth still hasn't been fully worked out.
There are three possibilities for the plot. One is that Lord English is an integral part of paradox space, and the kids and the trolls will never be able to stop him. Another is that Lord English is an integral part of paradox space that has gone horribly wrong, and the kids and trolls will be destined to stop him. Homestuck in general seems to have heavy themes of destiny, what with all the time loops and "You will do this in the future". This makes sense if the universe is deterministic, meaning that its physical state at one point completely determines its future state at any given future point. Namely, in a deterministic universe, defying destiny with free will is tantamount to breaking the laws of the universe with something that doesn't actually exist, which really makes the third option the most audacious.
INITIATING HUMOROUS RANT MODE. If you can't defy destiny with the laws of this universe, move to a new multiverse! One that doesn't have destiny! Screw destiny! No stupid universe, Skaia, or time-travelling demon or anyone else will tell me that I can't do something, because I can! I'm fed up with having to go along with bad things because it was inevitable, so I'm moving to somewhere else where I don't have to deal with that ****! DISABLE HUMOROUS RANT MODE.
Namely, move the kids, Lord English, or whatever to a place with new laws of physics. Specifically, a probabilistic multiverse, not deterministic (Many-worlds instead of Bohmian mechanics, for the quantumly inclined), and have larger objects able to exhibit quantum behavior, up to at least the scale of bacteria or cells, with the new rules of physics. That would make decisions partially random, by having a fundamentally random set of events determine the outcome of a decision, and not predestined or determined. Determinism no longer exists, so the new universe cannot enforce certain outcomes.
Also, Lord English seems to operate by setting up a stable time loop in a universe that necessitates the destruction of the universe for the time loop to exist in the first place. He did that with the Alternian universe. However, in a Many-worlds interpretation universe, stable time loops are near impossible to enforce. In one of the infinitely many timeline branches, the time loop is closed and stable, but in the rest, some quantum event happens that breaks the time loop by causing a different chain of events to happen than happened in the time loop. So Lord English can no longer destroy universes.
And, even if he still tries to mess up as many timelines as he can after he arrives, then as soon as the kids and Lord English arrive in the new universe, Lord English will be swamped by hundreds or thousands of time traveling beings from a wide variety of possible planets, timelines, times, and universes in the new multiverse, all really pissed off at him for messing up their timeline. He won't last long.
After all, I now think that Lord English isn't indestructible, it just says that he can't be killed by normal means because a Lord English from an alternate timeline will either prevent his own death, or take over after he dies. He can still be killed, just not permanently, because an alternate version of himself will take over.
So, if Lord English ever takes over too many timelines in this new multiverse, thousands of disgruntled time traveling beings trying to alter the past will provide a natural check on his powers. Sadly, flipping off destiny, finding a better multiverse, and having Lord English be killed by all the dakka of all the pissed off time travelers at once can probably only be accomplished by a first-guardian God Tier Jadesprite. Nobody else would have the power to break out of an entire multiverse. That is my plan 3.

[TODODeygulash]

My guess has always been that John channels the creative energy of Skaia itself to gain the power to fight LE, but that's a bit Deus Ex Machina-ish. I really like OP's idea, though.

It just came to me that John already has the same color scheme as Skaia, yellow shoes for Prospit and all.
I think it would be pretty awesome if he went into a Sepulchritude-esque form to fight LE. And since that would use up all of Skaia's creative power it would serve the double porpuse of cutting the Sburb cycle too. So he'd be making LE's destruction and Skaia's creation destroy each other. I like it!
Probably too simple and out of nowhere for Homestuck tho.

[SleuthSession]

I like most of these idea, and there is really only one problem that I have with some of these plans. When you stop Lord English, you should not make it so that he never existed in the first place. Doing this not only kills everyone that Lord English has ever influenced, kids and trolls included, and replaces them with duplicates that lead different lives(just like the post-scratch troll ancestors), unless they manage to escape the effects in a wierd plot shit-heavy fashion. It would also prevent all of the carapaces that we've followed from ever being. If LE created Sburb, it would prevent the creation of the human universe in the first place, and then all incarnations of all the characters would never have been. In any case, merely escaping a universe probably wouldn't enable survival in a situation where Lord English never was. Making it so LE never was would damage the multiverse far too much. In addition, Homestuck strikes me as a story where the characters growing up and changing into who they will be as adults seems to be one of the main points. Making it so they don't remember any of the character development they underwent would kind of make the whole story pointless. I trust that Andrew Hussie will not make a mistake like this.

That said, excellent ideas. They're great so long as the kids and trolls remember their experiences in s___b, and preferably manage to stay together so the human race can help the troll race grow to be the peaceful race they were always meant to be, not through a way that seems too quick and easy, like resetting the universe by removing Lord English, but through persistence and lessons learned from their new human comrades.

[Unclever title]

Deus Ex Machina is Latin for "God in the Machine." It comes from Greek and Roman plays where a god would literally be lowered onstage with a machine and would solve all the problems and unresolved issues. In modern fiction, it usually refers to some force outside the main plot coming in and resolving the conflict. Arguably, if the main characters have little or not hand in plot resolution, you could possibly consider that a Deus Ex Machina as well. It can be pretty subjective, but if the resolution is especially unsatisfying and smacks of
cop-out", you might be more prone to calling it Deus Ex Machina.

(Sorry if I sounded a bit condescending, there. I just went off of the assumption you've never heard of the concept before.)

More info from our friends at TVTropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../DeusExMachina

And I always thought it had something to do with that videogame. Thanks for the info.

More literally translated, Deus Ex Machina means "God from the machine," or "God out of the machine" hence in addition to the trope the video game has another meaning

(I suggest you play the original Deus Ex before continuing, that is if you haven't already)

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when (in one of the endings) JC basically ascends to electronic godhood, being an artificial lifeform to begin with JC was basically made god from machines. Also there's the whole "JC" being a reference to "Jesus Christ" thing.

But that actually has little to do with the trope.

More on topic, I wonder, since Lord English is made out to be the most powerful being mentioned in Homestuck, being more powerful than an already omnipotent First Guardian, would it at all be possible to trick Lord English into killing himself?

I mean, the guy set his own extremely convoluted closed time loop to ensure his entrance and existence. What if through expert manipulation of events, people, chess pieces, Lord English is brought to be the cause of his own demise?

I mean, Aradiafrogbotsprite mentioned that pretty much every critical event in paradox space is also, itself (sometimes paradoxically), its own cause. Then despite the fact that "he is already here" it will also be that "he has already been taken care of."

It would be similar to Chrono Trigger where you fight Lavos in the future, save the world, then go back in time to when Lavos is still alive and then don't worry about him ever again. Because, despite the fact that Lavos is still gnawing at the Earth's core or whatever he was already dealt with when he attacks the world 999 years in the future.

This would be an incredibly delicate plan though, you'd have to be tremendously careful not to trigger alternate realities otherwise you'd have to deal with multiple Lord Englishes and add them to the LE "assisted suicide" plan. In the case of alternat LEs you'd need to construct some multiple timeline spanning Rube Goldberg LE killing machine and I suspect this is what will happen.

To use engineering terms (just because I want to):
The idealized effect here is a negative feedback loop resulting in the steady state condition of the eventual number of Lord Englishes in all realities being zero.

In short, doom Lord English to death, repeatedly, as necessary, using Lord English's help.

The specifics of course are always the tricky part.

[Diffractor]

That actually seems like a pretty brilliant idea, if it can be worked out. I'm going to start working on it.

[Conor]

I'm hoping the Magic Cue Ball has the solution.

But that would never cross anyone's mind.

[PaladinFoster]

I'm hoping the Magic Cue Ball has the solution.

But that would never cross anyone's mind.

My guess is it would tell you to ask again later. Or if my theory is right it would say "You can't kill Lord English, dipshit."

[Crispiness]

I'm still going to stick with the (stupid) idea that Lord English will be tricked into eating the universe responsible for his creation, like an Ouroboros. Mostly because three days or so after I posted the theory Andrew made a reference to it in an update.

[Diffractor]

Well, actually, the above posters were paralleling my thoughts. I still haven't worked most of it out, but the cueball is necessary for knowing how to set up all the time stuff in the first place and getting Lord English to kill himself, and I found a way to work the plans and the cueball into a pool metaphor, which is the most important part.

[DarkCarnival]

I still say it has SOMETHING to do with the Problem Sleuth hammer John tried crafting back near the beginning.

[ChronoSamurai]

But... John got the hammer with the bunny! Plus we see him with an Alchemised mashup version of it in some panels showing the future. How do you think it will be relevant? Share your theories

[NullEntropy]

But... John got the hammer with the bunny! Plus we see him with an Alchemised mashup version of it in some panels showing the future. How do you think it will be relevant? Share your theories

Zillyhoo and the mysterious Problem Sleuth && hammer item are (probably) different items.

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Different grist costs.

[PaladinFoster]

It's probably a hammer called SEPULCRICRUSH.

[ChronoSamurai]

But... John got the hammer with the bunny! Plus we see him with an Alchemised mashup version of it in some panels showing the future. How do you think it will be relevant? Share your theories

Zillyhoo and the mysterious Problem Sleuth && hammer item are (probably) different items.

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Different grist costs.

That sir, is an obvious thing I missed! Well, thats what you get when you ASSUME! You... you fuck shit up.

[PaladinFoster]

That sir, is an obvious thing I missed! Well, thats what you get when you ASSUME! You... you fuck shit up.

Assuming makes an ass of u and me.

[Diffractor]

I have done what Unclever Title has asked, and come up with my 4th and final plan, that can remove any number of Lord English's from any number of alternate timelines from any number of universes. However, it is missing one crucial ingredient. There needs to be some overly complicated way of getting Lord English to cause a series of events that kills himself in the timeline, in order to close the stable time loop. I will leave it up to Andrew Hussie to come up with that part, with the players manipulating Lord English into closing the necessary time loops. Die's doll, Rose's cue ball, X-ray glasses, a trans-timeline communication device, and a small computer running one very simple ~ath program are also needed. However, the basic outline of what to do is still in place.

Two unique concepts are crucial to understanding this plan. One is the nature of Lord English. Every time a timeline branches off into an alternate timeline and Lord English is present, another version of Lord English is in the new timeline. The new version of Lord English will then go on to cause the destruction of the alternate timeline, explaining why they are always doomed. So, there isn't just one Lord English, there are as many versions of him as there are different timelines, with each Lord English being responsible for the destruction of one timeline. Textual support for this view will be provided upon request. And, when a universe is destroyed, one of the Lord Englishes from a random timeline in the multiverse will be summoned to the destroyed universe by the ~ath code on the server in the Furthest Ring.

The second concept is one that originated with me. It is the concept of a quasi-stable time loop. If an event in the past is changed, the timeline with the changed event will be the new Alpha timeline, and the original will branch off as an alternate timeline. This was demonstrated with the dead John timeline branching off from the one where Alternate Dave stopped him. But, what if the event changed in the past is so inconsequential, so insignificant, so minute, that even though the timeline has branched, all future events will play out the exact same way that they did in the other timeline? That is a quasi-stable time loop.

So, here is the plan. First, give Rose's cue ball, the X-ray glasses, and a trans-timeline communication device to Dead Equius (or any other void player) in a dream bubble. We know that either the cue ball or Equius (The Heir of Void) are exceptions, dark pockets to Doc Scratch's omniscence, so it seems reasonable that having them both together, as well as them being in the Furthest Ring, will make it so that not even Lord English will be able to know about his influence. The X-ray glasses will enable him to read the cue ball, and he will communicate with the various timelines to be created, setting up the necessary events and stable time loops to accomplish, in all of the timelines, the end of the universe/that timeline and the destruction of Lord English. In short, he will act as a counterpart to Doc Scratch. Plus, it makes a certain sense. The cue ball landing in a dark pocket in pool gives a big advantage to the other side, letting them put the ball anywhere they want (set up whatever events they want), and putting the opposing side (Lord English) at a big disadvantage. So, a void player will be orchestrating all the events.

Now, for the basics of what to do. The void player will set things up so that the universe ends eventually (summoning Lord English). However, by manipulating time loops, the void player will make it so that even though Lord English manipulates the past to set up the end of the universe, the only way to end the universe for Lord English is for him to somehow die or be destroyed in that timeline. In short, the void player will set it up so that Lord English must die in order for that timeline/universe to be destroyed, and if he doesn't die in that timeline, events will happen that will make that timeline be prolonged indefinietly. Lord English, will, of course, be destroyed/destroy himself, since his destruction is necessary for the end of that universe, and the stable time loop. Plus, there are other versions of Lord English. The death of one can't affect anything (he thinks). Lord English must kill himself to doom that universe and summon himself.

Now, here is the tricksy part. At the very beginning of the universe, the small computer with the ~ath program will be put in a place where it will have no influence on the rest of the timeline. The best place is to put it in a giant void between galaxies several dozen billion light years away from anywhere interesting. The computer has a number stored on it. 0. The ~ath program, will, upon the death of the universe, send a message to itself early on in the universe to increase the number stored in the computer by one. What this does is make a quasi-stable time loop. It still technically is an alternate timeline, since something is different this time around, but the sequence of events is exactly the same.

Now, in this new universe, it will still be destroyed, the same events will still happen, Lord English still has to be destroyed to end the universe and everything seems identical, but it secretly is a different timeline. So, upon the inevitable destruction of the universe, the Lord English summoned will actually be a Lord English from a DIFFERENT TIMELINE THAN THE ONE THAT WAS SUMMONED INTO THE ORIGINAL UNIVERSE. A different Lord English. And, upon the destruction of this universe, again, back in time, the inconsequential computer now has the number two. And it continues, possibly for billions of iterations, until all Lord Englishes have been eradicated from existence.

So, by making Lord English have to kill himself to end a universe, (secretly spawning a new timeline) and having a different Lord English be summoned and then killed in each timeline/universe, eventually you can run through all of the Lord Englishes. However, since you don't want to take the chance of ending up in one of the timelines that is destined to be destroyed, just stick a Lord English pin into the doll to skip straight to the timeline in which all of the Lord Englishes have finally been destroyed.

Finally, this plot provides fuel for a good story, because the critical step of the events needed to force Lord English to kill himself has been left undefined, allowing creative liberties to be taken, with even more weird time stuff and unusual events being sure to happen, and it also allows the existence of one final antagonist in the story, because even though Equius with a cue ball is necessary to finish off Lord English, Equius with a cue ball could also potentially cause some serious problems down the line . Let's hope an Aradiabot destroys that thing once he's done with it.

[Unclever title]

Diffractor, you have a GIFT!

[Nokob]

If another Lrd English is created each time a new timeline is created, how can you reduce the number of them by creating new timelines that each destroy only one LE?

[Legendary]

More to the point, where does it say exactly that there are new LEs every time? Since when does LE clear out doomed timelines? He had nothing to do with the collapse of the Calsprite timeline, for example. It fell apart as soon as Dave cleared out, and LE couldn't have been there because there was no way for him to have followers to arrange his summoning; the alpha timeline isn't slated for destruction, it's going to be scratched out and replaced.

Therefore, I submit that there is only one Lord English who matters: he either doesn't appear in doomed timelines in which case who cares OR he is destroyed when they are because he too is doomed as a result. The main LE does need to be killed, though, and really there are a couple of ways to do this. Here's one I suggest that we can presume won't happen:

Use the trolls to gain information on how Lord English was summoned into their existence.
Use that information to summon him into the post-Scratch timeline.
Perform the Scratch.
The timeline gets erased, Lord English is gone.

If for some reason the timelines still exist somewhere, then sacrifice a few people who will pretend to attack him, their only purpose to be to keep him from time traveling enough that the Scratch catches up.

[NullEntropy]

Is it a safe assumption that J. is from the post-scratch universe? Because if he is, and he exchanges packages with Jade in the pre-scratch universe, then the Scratch probably doesn't work the way some people seem to think it does. Why should the Scratch wipe out part of the timeline at all? It seems perfectly reasonable to think that the Scratch may be merely an event along the timeline that physically resets the universe to a previous state (with some alterations), as well as forming a barrier that prevents most (but not all) forms of time-travel through it.

Even if the Scratch worked the other way it probably still wouldn't destroy LE. He would be part of the universe after all. Not to mention that he's already demonstrated that he can manipulate the alterations the Scratch produces. He would just get "rewound" back to an earlier state.

[Legendary]

Actually, the Scratch has one very nearly confirmed property: any entity who enters the pre-Scratch universe ONLY enters the pre-Scratch universe (well, unless they like enter, leave, go to the post-Scratch universe... But if they live and die on one side, that's the end). Nannasprite's story to Fedora Freak almost certainly confirms that the post-Scratch universe won't have a Betty Crocker. Thus, while Joe Average is almost certainly guaranteed to be "reborn" when the post-Scratch universe catches up to him, if you expose a non-native to the Scratch, they're gone since their timeline depends on the Furthest Ring and can't reboot properly.

[NullEntropy]

Nannasprite's story to Fedora Freak almost certainly confirms that the post-Scratch universe won't have a Betty Crocker.

Explain to me how you got such a strong impression of that.

Besides, there is a crucial difference between BC/HIC and Lord English: He enters at the end of the timeline, not the middle. Actually...come to think of it...if a universe is going to be scratched in the future, LE can't be there already unless he can time-travel across Scratches anyway.