How Do You Kill Lord English?

[Diffractor]

Lord English is only killable through glitches and exploits in space-time. However, it also seems that, at some point in the story, he will be killed. So, how can it be done? Feel free to post your own elaborate plans on how to kill Lord English. I’m hoping they’re simpler than mine, though. Maybe our collective brainstorming will provide some ideas for Andrew Hussie.

So, here is my plan to kill Lord English. It critically relies on two assumptions, though. One is that we don’t have to worry about other Lord English’s from alternate timelines. This assumption seems reasonable because Terezi had previously stated that Paradox Space finds ways to annihilate timelines that don’t contribute to its propagation, and that it is quite vicious about punishing those that inhabit them and those that cause them. Doc Scratch also said that the danger Lord English poses is sanctioned by Paradox Space and that his presence in a universe means that it will be torn apart. This seems to imply that Lord English is Paradox Space’s way of destroying alternate timelines, and, that we won’t have to worry about alternate timeline versions of Lord English, because, honestly, that doesn’t make sense. The other assumption is that Lord English can skip to any point on any timeline, which is the worst-case assumption for his time travel abilities, because it would allow a past version of Lord English to arrive in a timeline even after you kill him. It is a pessimistic assumption, and therefore, not a very objectionable one. I am also assuming that LE will not be depowered upon the destruction of the Green Sun, also to give him the best chances possible. So here we go.

There are two possibilities for Lord English’s timeline, the closed case and the open case. The closed case means that LE eventually goes back in time to become himself, that he doesn’t have an origin or an ending, and that killing him will sprout off into an alternate timeline where he never existed, or be impossible. The open case means that LE has an origin and an end, and also that his subjective time from birth till death is finite. This paragraph will discuss the closed time loop version. To begin with, let’s assume that we have a machine capable of trapping and killing LE. Ideas for such an object will be given later. What you do is you trap Lord English in the machine, and then sprout off another timeline afterwards, using the 0 1 method outlined later. In the alternate timeline, make a ~ath code that, if LE has never interfered with the offshoot timeline, frees him from the trap, and if he does interfere with the timeline at all, will kill him in the trap. Due to having to preserve the temporal loop, LE will not interfere with the new offshoot timeline, and you will have a LE free timeline. If he does interfere with the new timeline after escaping, then he either caused a paradox, making him cease to exist, or he just broke out of the temporal loop, enabling the open time path technique mentioned later to be used.

Now, let’s say we have to deal with the open case. Preventing Lord English’s formation in the first place wouldn’t work, because then you would split off into an alternate timeline, and Lord English from the timeline where you failed to prevent his formation would try to destroy you as well. These strategies are so complicated because you can’t just deal with Lord English once, you have to permanently prevent him from interfering, since Lord English in the past can time travel to a point in time after when he dies. So, in this, what you do, is you use the LE killer trap. Then, afterward, you make a ~ath code that bifurcates the timeline, splits it, every time Lord English enters the timeline. Since the subjective time from birth to death is finite, or, in the terminated loop case, the time from any given point in the loop to the time he dies is finite, Lord English cannot possibly visit and mess up all the constantly forming timelines due to their constant splitting whenever he arrives since he only has a finite amount of subjective time to work with. This ensures that at least one timeline will remain Lord English free.

Now, we move to a way of splitting timelines. Let’s say that Dave has a piece of paper with a number, 1 or 0 on it. He travels back in time, and tells past Dave to, if the paper has a 1 on it, erase it and replace it with a 0, or, if it has a 0 on it, erase it and replace it with a 1. The paper will alternate, 1, 0, 1, 0… forever, so the result is still self-consistent, no paradoxes have been made, but Dave’s timeline will split into two, one where Dave got a 1, and one where Dave got a 0. This is crucial to the following blueprint for a Lord English killing machine.

To make the machine in question, the necessary items must be found or alchemised. Crowbar’s crowbar is needed, along with an alchemisation combo of the 4th wall, Jade’s particle accelerator, and Dave’s turntop/timetables, to make the TIME PORTAL ACCELERATOR. Crowbar’s crowbar may also be added to give the portals the ability to nullify the abilities of time-related artifacts that pass through them, in case the time shenanigans about to be committed aren’t enough to tear Lord English’s coat to shreds. 4 TIME PORTALS are needed. Jade/Jadesprite’s space powers are also needed. The resulting set of 4 portals will have the properties of being able to send whatever enters one portal out of another portal (4th wall), increasing the velocity of whatever passes through them (particle accelerator), and being able to send things back in time, as well as being able to be programmed (timetables). First, let’s set up the 01 trick. If something enters the 1 portal, and exits the 2 portal headed towards the 3 portal, then it will send a message back into the past to link the 1 portal to the 3 portal instead, and shoot the object out of the 3 portal toward the 2 portal, splitting the timeline just like the 01 trick. If it enters the 1 portal, then the timeline will be split between the object going from 2 to 3 and 3 to 2. Apply the same thing to 3 of the portals total (enters 1, split between 2 to 3 and 3 to 2, enters 2, split between 1 to 3 and 3 to 1, and enters 3, split between 1 to 2 and 2 to 1), so, when anything goes into one of the portals, it will split the timeline. And then split it again and again and again and again…. You have now made a TIMELINE FRACTAL GENERATOR. There is also probably some way of exploiting the time powers of the portals to make the timelines interfere with each other to make it even more complicated, but I don’t want to find out what it is. The 4th portal will connect to one of the three, but only one-way. Once something goes in, it doesn’t go out. Isolate the first 3 portals in a black hole, so the endlessly branching timelines don’t interfere with and doom your own universe.

Toss Lord English in the portal, into the set of 3 portals in the black hole, and stand back. The gravitational field of the black hole will cause the portals to all move closer to each other, until the TIME PORTALS intersect Problem Sleuth-style. The increase in velocity that the portals impart is for the portals to do their job in the time before they intersect. And, last of all, the set of portals will end up creating a fractal timeline inside the black hole. Then, just give the 4th portal, the initial entry portal, a good solid whack with the CROWBAR, negating its effect on the timeline. The feedback loops from the intersecting TIME PORTALS, the gravitational field of the black hole, and the sheer amount of temporal energy released from the destruction of the infinite number of fractal timeline branches will all conspire to rip Lord English right out of existence in an EXPLODING MULTI-DIMENSIONAL TIME FRACTAL BLACK HOLE. And that is how you kill Lord English.

[Menen]

*clap clap clap*

Thats how its done, folks.

[Xzaz]

I'm not sure anyone can follow up on that.

[kmsumrall]

Neat. I will say, a diagram or something would really help my tired nonworking brain understanding.

[shinyjiggly]

That. is. AMAZING.
Just one question: How are we going to get LE to climb into the doomy time thingie?
Wouldn't he just have the handmaid/himself from another time warn him of it and/or destroy it before it can be used against him?

[ChronoSamurai]

The massive portal setup reminds me of the weaponized traffic light portal system they created in Problem Sleuth. That makes it awesome.

[Quaddy]

I got halfway through this, then stopped reading, not for lack of interest but for fear of spoilers.

[LMLYP]

andrew hussie is reading this thread and furiously taking notes

[SpearmePlease]

All I know is that it requires some serious time-based shenanigans, and definitely requires cheating/a game glitch.

It specifically states somewhere in the comic that it requires time Shenanigans (during the intermission, I believe), and it is implied that the method by which it will happen is going to be "cheating", based on his namesake.

[Nova Toast]

Sorry if I missed this, but what do you think of Lord English's spare coat? Since it seems to take temporal damage for him that Stitch is constantly repairing (because of Felt shenanigans), I expect that the Felt will have to be dealt with too. Even though the Midnight Crew already murdered them all except Snowman... but then some of them showed up again anyway. Though I suppose Stitch may not have the time to repair the coat if there's too much damage being put upon it all at once.

[SpearmePlease]

Hussie has the coat.

[Achille'sHamstring]

How exactly do you plan on getting the portals into a black hole? Space powers courtesy of Jade/Jadesprite/Kanaya?

Also is hitting him with a half brick in a sock an option? It seems much quicker, but I'm not sure it will work. Opinions?

[TheBertRam]

Well well, that's really fucking indepth!

[Diffractor]

Heh. Thanks for all the compliments .
Now, for the questions. As for Lord English or the Handmaid warning himself about the machine, I think that problem can be avoided with effort. From what I've seen, timelines aren't constantly splitting, it takes specific circumstances to split off a timeline. If you go back in time and change the past to something that didn't happen in your timeline, it splits off a new timeline (Dead John and Future Dave, and the 01 trick). We also know that ~ath can split timelines (Shown in the code, and presumably the cause of the timeline of the doomed Aradiabot in the dream bubble). Finally, Terezi's coin can make the decisions made immediately after the flip have the power to split timelines. This interpretation is supported by Dave calling the coin "Schrodingers coin", and the Dead Dave and Vriska fighting Jack timelines both sprouting off as the result of a decision made immediately after that coin being flipped. There may be more ways, but it seems that timelines aren't constantly splitting, because if they were, there would be far more interference from alternate timelines in the story than there actually is. So, if you can avoid splitting off any timelines in the interval between coming up with the machine and killing Lord English, there won't be a timeline in which Lord English finds out about the plan and isn't killed soon afterward, so he can't warn himself in the past.
And, about getting the portals into a black hole, yes, Jade/Jadesprite will be needed for that.
Finally, if you were wondering how the kids will get the idea for how to set up this complex plan, the kids from after Lord English's reign will meet the kids from the present in a dream bubble and tell them exactly how to do it.
But still, if you have a different plan, post it! Even if it requires specific circumstances to work, like the destruction of the Greeen Sun being able to depower Lord English, or Lord English only being able to enter and move around in universes that are destined to be destroyed, it still should be worthwhile to share.
EDIT: If Lord English can only enter and move around in universes that are destined to be destroyed, and can only be summoned with the ~ath code that Sollux found on the server in the Furthest Ring, just find the server here http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003992 and slam it with the crowbar. Or have Oglogoth eat it.

[TODODeygulash]

This is pretty awsome...
Can't say I agree about the coinflip splitting the timelines. Since Terezi disregards it and marely does what seems best I believe it's people's decisions that cause the splitting.

My theory is much simpler. This is assuming LE has set points of birth and death.
The alpha timeline is defined as the one that summons LE. Sometimes a universe will not manage to summon LE creating an imposibilty. These cases are where it's needed to Scratch. Only one posible timeline leads to a succesful scratch, this how the Alpha timeline is defined in to-be-scratched universes at the lack of LE. So LE is only summoned into the alpha timeline of a universe which doesn't need to be scratched. The glitches and exploits could refer to either creating two alpha timelines (by carefully setting a scenario in which LE could be summoned in two different ways) or performing the Scratch in a pefectly good universe. In the latter case it would be tricky to both cause the scratch and summon LE in the same timeline so the scratching could be caused in a beta timeline if the players on it live long enough after the spliting.

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There's also my personal theory that LE destroying universes is needed so the constant creating by Skaia doesn't cause the universes to start coliding with each other so the Sburb cycle would need to be taken care of too. But that's beside the point.

[Quirk]

Killing LE? Easy.

More dakka. Actually, all of the dakka. All of it.

[DJ-P0N3]

Killing LE? Easy.

More dakka. Actually, all of the dakka. All of it.

You can never have enough dakka ya git.

[Quirk]

You can never have enough dakka ya git.

Exactly. LE's gotta give out sometime, and all the kids have to do is use an infinite ammo hack.

[GiltCipher]

Before the [o]termission I imagined it would involve destabilizing his time loop via preventing his summoning. While he would still be "ALREADY HERE", the paradox of him never having actually arrived might render him vulnerable.

[Diffractor]

For TODODeygulash, I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but it seems that your first plan will work only if Lord English is restricted to the Alpha timeline, and if making 2 Alpha timelines won't end up creating 2 Lord Englishes. Given that, it is quite a clever plan, and is also very clear and simple. I doubt the second plan, because scratching the session will either lead to another scratched session after the scratch, or a sucessful universe with Lord English in it, which just leaves you back where you started, unless scratching the session with Lord English in it will prevent him from arriving in the new timeline. Still, all of our plans only work within certain bounds, so by having as many ideas as possible out there, we can cover a much wider variety of possibilities.
And, as for GiltCipher's plan, there still is hope. Spades Slick still hasn't killed Snowman yet, and Lord English is summoned upon the end of the universe, so there may still be a chance of preventing his summoning. Unlikely, though. And, as for destabilizing his time loop, there are two possibilities. One is that the mere presence of Lord English himself demonstrates that his summoning will not be prevented, that it is inevitable. The other possibility is that preventing his summoning will end up branching off a timeline where Lord English never existed in the first place, with a peaceful Alternia, no Doc Scratch, and all sorts of other nice things. If Lord English can't travel between different timelines, all is well. If he can go between different timelines, then you're screwed.

[Lord Ascapelion]

Yeah, I would not be surprised if Andrew actually ended up using this, or at the very least, referencing it.

Reminds me a lot of Problem Sleuth, with the various window shenanigans and weird puzzle shit.

[TODODeygulash]

I doubt the second plan, because scratching the session will either lead to another scratched session after the scratch, or a sucessful universe with Lord English in it, which just leaves you back where you started, unless scratching the session with Lord English in it will prevent him from arriving in the new timeline.

Actually, the point of scratching a good universe is less about changing the universe itself and more about how the scratch would affect LE. He might loose his memory the same way the ancestors did making him relatively harmless. Also, since I doubt First Guardian influense was the only factor in turning trolls from a pacific species into a space-conquering empire, there is posibly more fundamental changes made to universe caused by the scratch, so there's the chance that LE's powers might also be affected. But that's mostly just wishful thinking.

[Legendary]

Of course, because of the conditions of Lord English's arrival, it may be impossible to summon him to a universe doomed to be scratched. He feeds on the corpses of the universes he enters, and scratched out universes aren't dead, just violently rewritten.

[Teases]

Well well, that's really fucking indepth!

Agreed, heh.

[nicol-baka]

I imagine it would be something ridiculously convoluted and overwrought

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similar to how Alucard is killed at the end of Hellsing. I actually started a drawing of Alucard in the Cairo overcoat once...