[Diablo] Hell's Satans: Apocalypse, Now

[Catbread]

I beat it and it was super great.

I can't imagine any class being better than Witch Doctor, though. Besides being a super noble hero/demon killer, he also throws jars of spiders at people. He can cover the entire room with spiders, forever.

I'm really diggin' the dialogue bits and Bioshock-style journals, too. Maybe that's because I'm a dorky English liking kind of guy, but there it is.

[chimericWilder]

And remember kids, we only have access to the first 10 skills per class (i think?) in the beta.
Meaning that the sickest stuff is yet to come.

[Jacquerel]

Killed Skeleton king with Witch Doctor, Wizard and Barbarian (all at level 10)
Got to say I love Witch Doctor most but I'd be happy playing all three of them (which is good because I am going to, I've got two groups of friends for Multiplayer and myself)

My friend said he enjoyed Monk and Demon Hunter but the latter's skills seemed mainly based around soloing for the early levels and thus weren't incredibly useful in our team game, obviously they'd be more useful on harder difficulties

[chimericWilder]

I got to try all classes, got to 13 with barbarian and wizard, 12 with demon hunter and witch doctor, and 11 with monk. And oh my god is barbarian awesome.

Demon hunter isnt much fun at low levels, i think, but i can see them shining at higher levels and difficulties when survival actually matters a lot.

And also BURNING BATS OF DOOM.

[ndoto]

Beat it. T'was cool. I like the new skill trees, even if they are kinda dumbed down.

I said as much over in the Game Chat thread but yeah, I felt like I had a problem with the dumbing down. They felt more like skill lines than skill trees, and it kind of made me miss being able to put points in whatever I wanted to see what kind of weird experimental builds I could come up with.

All in all though, I thought the beta was fun! The dang client didn't finish downloading until Sunday afternoon so I didn't get to do much other than make a Demon Hunter and play single player with her. I thought the Demon Hunter was very cool, but then again, I was soloing as opposing to playing in a group so maybe that's coloring my perception. I really liked what I saw of/was able to play around with as far as the crafting system goes.

I did feel like my character felt really overpowered compared to the enemies I was facing, though, and I wasn't sure if it was just because of the character I'd picked/gear I had found, or if the beginning of the game is just that easy. (I should note that I ran out of time to play right before reaching Mr. Skeleton Man Guy Boss, so I did not actually get to fight him). I remember when trying to get the crown, though, there was some huge thing that busted down a wall and looked all threatening. I stood in place and right clicked 4 times (to throw knives, right after I'd gotten the impact rune) and he was dead. It felt almost unsatisfying, to have won so easily.

[Jacquerel]

That's the problem though, Diablo 2 had a lot of choices but the vast majority of them were objectively wrong choices, something that Blizzard even admits.
There were only a few mathematically proven builds that were capable of functioning to the point where they were viable on harder difficulties (similar to World of Warcraft), the fact that other builds existed was moot because if you put points into them you just performed worse than other people and risked not even being able to complete the content at all.

Diablo III gives you fewer choices but they are real choices that actually mean something. Now you can build a melee-range wizard! You don't focus yourself exclusively on one or two active skills, and dump the rest into auras or improving the damage of those two abilities!
It is a vastly superior system. Any game that gives you a lot of choices but many of them are incorrect is only giving you the illusion of choice. If you don't pick the mathematically superior talents you're hurting yourself and not even playing how the developers intended.


The beginning is also easy not just because it is the first third of the first quarter of the game but that it is also on the easiest of three (or was it four?) difficulty levels.
I'm sure once you get onto Inferno Mode Tristram Cathedral you'll be swearing at that Unburied on a regular basis.

[chimericWilder]

It is a vastly superior system. Any game that gives you a lot of choices but many of them are incorrect is only giving you the illusion of choice. If you don't pick the mathematically superior talents you're hurting yourself and not even playing how the developers intended.

This is a philosophy that Blizzard have been pushing a lot. I think they tried to begin at it in wow cataclysm, but kinds of failed. With Diablo 3, though... Oh my god so many builds and they're all fucking cool and work like a bawz. I've been contemplating ranged barbarian.

And yea, as you said, the beta is only the very beginning of the game, where basically you're being taught the ropes. Though i agree that the huge unburied guy could probably have been... less of a pushover, the first time.

But really

The current difficulty
Is NOT AT ALL indicative of what d3 will play like later. At all.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/blog/3684617

[ndoto]

That's the problem though, Diablo 2 had a lot of choices but the vast majority of them were objectively wrong choices, something that Blizzard even admits.
There were only a few mathematically proven builds that were capable of functioning to the point where they were viable on harder difficulties (similar to World of Warcraft), the fact that other builds existed was moot because if you put points into them you just performed worse than other people and risked not even being able to complete the content at all.

Diablo III gives you fewer choices but they are real choices that actually mean something. Now you can build a melee-range wizard! You don't focus yourself exclusively on one or two active skills, and dump the rest into auras or improving the damage of those two abilities!
It is a vastly superior system. Any game that gives you a lot of choices but many of them are incorrect is only giving you the illusion of choice. If you don't pick the mathematically superior talents you're hurting yourself and not even playing how the developers intended.

This is a philosophy that Blizzard have been pushing a lot. I think they tried to begin at it in wow cataclysm, but kinds of failed. With Diablo 3, though... Oh my god so many builds and they're all fucking cool and work like a bawz. I've been contemplating ranged barbarian.

Yeah, I think having never actually gotten to the endgame of D2, I was misunderstanding the whole "illusion of choice" thing as meaning "no you're not doing max damage and therefore you're dumb", but it's clear after reading more about the various flaws of D2's stat distros/skill trees that it's much more about "choices that are that but that literally do not work right and will inhibit your character's ability to progress". The "choices" in D2 were supposed to be a much more permanent way to create a build, but it ended up just creating ways that you could permanently eff up your character. In D3, instead of having to choose the actual progression, we are given an increasing number of abilities over time, but we are limited by how many of them we can actually actively use (via our two primary attacks and four skill slots). So instead, we're given all the tools (eventually) and the choice is not about progression but how we use those tools. Am I grasping the correct distinction here?

The beginning is also easy not just because it is the first third of the first quarter of the game but that it is also on the easiest of three (or was it four?) difficulty levels.
I'm sure once you get onto Inferno Mode Tristram Cathedral you'll be swearing at that Unburied on a regular basis.

And yea, as you said, the beta is only the very beginning of the game, where basically you're being taught the ropes. Though i agree that the huge unburied guy could probably have been... less of a pushover, the first time.

But really

The current difficulty
Is NOT AT ALL indicative of what d3 will play like later. At all.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/blog/3684617

Okay good, this makes me very happy.

[Not The Author]

Skill trees on the whole just sort of irk me - you talk about choice in a system that is specifically designed to limit your options - you can build this way, this way, or this way, and within those subsets, you can build this way or this way, and if you don't build those ways, you will either not get the good skills or you will suck really hard. The Diablo 3 method seems to encourage trying different things and working out the best build for you; skill trees (often) restrict experimentation through prohibitive respec requisites.

Am I grasping the correct distinction here?

Sounds about right. For those of you who didn't find it (or haven't found it yet), there's a toggle under the gameplay options that removes the one-ability-type-per-slot restriction so that yes, you can indeed stack Earthquake, Call of the Ancients, and Wrath of the Berserker all at once. (Sadly, toggling it does not open all your ability slots right away; you'll still have to level up to access all 6.)

[Jacquerel]

The only thing that annoys me about it is for some reason the default setting does not allow you to put (for example) a primary ability on the 1 key.
There is a UI setting that lets you put any skill anywhere (you could have all primaries if you want) but it is not on by default and never mentioned by the game, you have to find it yourself.
I mean I guess it is sort of helpful to make sure new players don't place only non-damaging attacks or something but by the time you have that many skills you'd surely know not to do that anyway?

[Not The Author]

I think what it is is Blizzard trying to make D3 more accessible to a wider audience. "Surely you'd know" is unfortunately sometimes a leap of faith, and I think the way they have the skills set up is a good primer for newer players to learn the value of skill diversity and non-offensive skills. I suspect newbies would be more drawn to using only damaging skills, which is actually terrible strategy as you can realistically only use one attack at any given time.

From my beta experience (which, as said, is like a third of a fourth of a fourth of the game), they've made this latest entry much more accessible and much more casual. Those are terms which are often used in negative ways and frequently imply a "dumbing down" of the system, but even as a series veteran, I like the ease-of-access which D3 affords. From the little quality-of-life changes (mostly comprised of the inventory/potion/ID/TP/crafting changes from 2) to more obvious mechanical ones (no more trees to water or stats to manage; weapon stats now matter for every class; each class feels unique), D3 is just better. It's just... something I can very easily see doing with friends on a Friday n

Oh

Right

Nevermind

[chimericWilder]

Thats why we got this thread, though. Once D3 launches, we can use dem battletags to be like 'sup hows this particular demonslaying sound to you' and everyone can happily murder demons together i guess?

[chimericWilder]

Sup ranged barbarian
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...QiP!ZYf!bZaZcb

This is a build i am seriously considering running with, atleast for some time. I realise that it has pretty much zero survivability, but as a ranged barb spamming weapon throw, you might not need all that much survivability. Basically, what you do is:
Ancient spear a couple of enemies. Immediately do Overpower. Start cleaving until you get a crit and they are knocked back. Spam weapon throw - with richochet and the No Escape fury gain from crits, you can spam it a lot and a lot.
Once you're low on fury, go ancient spear again and resume cleaving. Obviously keep battle rage active at all times, too.
If you get in trouble, wrath of the berserker kills everything with that rune. A single crit will murder most things around your target. And you have many crits, because shits the one stat you love.

Tis build definitely wont make it as a solo build on some of the harder difficulties, but i am thinking it might be pretty cool on lower difficulties and on higher difficulties with a buddy to take the hits for you.

[AllTruth]

Avoidance tanking monk anyone?
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...dfh!dWX!ZbYcYc

Not sure how viable this would be, but it seems like fun to me. Only trouble I can see for now is a lack of damage output on single player if weapon damage is small as well as an appropriate secondary.

[Kiwizoom]

Diablo II is one of my favorite games.
But I've read so much about 3, 3 is coming out, 3 is coming out.. For about 4 years, hahah. I still don't believe it, I refuse to believe it. When it's out, I will know it is in fact a figment of my imagination.
DII will always have a cozy place inside of me. :3

[Not The Author]

I call this one the Deathly Death Ray of Deathly Deathness.

Magic Missile until Arcane Dynamo is charged. Proc 1 through 4 and spam Disintegrate until out of energy. Repeat.

In-depth:

show spoiler

hide spoiler

• Magic Missile (Penetrating Blast)
  Chosen over Electrocute for synergy with Temporal Flux and greater damage potential. Penetrating Blast to trigger Arcane Dynamo more frequently.
  
• Disintegrate (Volatility or Intensify)
  The meat of the build. High-damage, penetrating, and spammable. Volatility does ludicrous damage, but Intensify is probably better for bosses. Focus on increasing the damage through buffs and debuffs and increasing the duration through Energy max boosts and regen.
  
• Slow Time (Time Warp)
  Slow Time is not the best defensive option, but it's still decent. This build's more about stacking damage bonuses on Disintegrate, anyway, which Time Warp does nicely.
  
• Diamond Skin (Prism)
  The only real defensive skill in this arsenal, though its intended use is to drastically reduce Disintegrate's cost.
  
• Familiar (Arcanot)
  Boost Energy regen for longer Disintegrate, cause extra damage, and slow enemies due to Temporal Flux. What's not to like?
  
• Mirror Image (Mirror Mimics)
  I look at these guys backwards: they add 20% bonus damage to all my attacks, and as a nice side bonus distract enemies from devouring my succulent flesh. Might also be used to proc Arcane Dynamo faster with triple piercing missiles.
  
• Astral Presence
  Increases the duration of and decreases the downtime between Disintegrates. No-brainer.
  
• Temporal Flux
  All of my damage is Arcane, and as I've foregone escape mechanisms in favor of sheer damage, keeping enemies from reaching me is the next best thing. Additionally, lengthens the period enemies are stuck taking 20% bonus damage in Slow Time. Meshes nicely with Demon Hunter's Cull the Weak passive to boot.
  
• Arcane Dynamo
  The last nail. 75% bonus damage on top of Time Warp and Mirror Mimics on a spammable attack that already does 155% weapon damage to everything it hits is just ridiculous. And it might also affect Volatility.

There're a few obvious downsides to this build - any enemy resistant to Slows or Arcane damage (god forbid they bring back elemental immunities) will wreck your shit, and there's no hard escape mechanism. I welcome others' comments and criticisms.

[chimericWilder]

I like that design, i think i wanted to do a disintregrate thing at some point. I think that Arcane Dynamo is misplaced, though, since your entire build is based off of maintaining disintregrate for a hilarious long time, and that arcane dynamo works off of magic missile, which you will only use for a very limited period whenever you're out of arcane power. It'd absolutely murder everything when you did get all five flashes, but that would be rare, i think, depending on the proccrate. It is true though that there is no other passive that would make your disintregrate better, though.

If you do want to go with arcane dynamo, though, you should probably take Split instead of penetrating blast, though - penetrating blast will only pierce one enemy, so it'll have a chance to hit twice, whereas split hits thrice every time, thereby working better with the dynamo.

E: Also, i say though way too much.

I modified an older build i didnt like to look like this:

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...SjT!XUT!ZZZZaZ

Again, arcane dynamo might be misplaced here, but damn have you seen Death Blossom's damage? If you're surrounded, you have the advantage.

Avoidance tanking monk anyone?
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...dfh!dWX!ZbYcYc

Not sure how viable this would be, but it seems like fun to me. Only trouble I can see for now is a lack of damage output on single player if weapon damage is small as well as an appropriate secondary.

I designed such a build some time ago, too. This was my take on it.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...fih!dWX!ZcbYcc

Sweeping wind is probably the most relevant difference, there. You'll be getting crit anyway, because sixth sense. Cyclone strike followed by sweeping wind and all that ludicruous dodge (and thereby damage from Backdraft) should do pretty sweet aoe damage, really. Oh, and killing you will be impossible with the dodge alone, but with healing from breath of heaven every now and then? You'd have to be particularly unlucky with your dodges to even come close to dying.

[Not The Author]

[...]penetrating blast will only pierce one enemy, so it'll have a chance to hit twice[...]

Huh. That's not what the tooltip sounds like to me at all! Otherwise, why pluralize "and hit additional enemies"? Seeing as Hungering Arrow would routinely pierce once or twice at only 50% pierce chance (lower chance than PenBlast because it's also homing, probably), I imagine I'd get much more mileage out of Penetrating Blast. You do have a good point that that only really works if there are large groups, though; despite often missing one of the three on regular enemies, Split would work better than PenBlast against bosses.

[...]arcane dynamo works off of magic missile, which you will only use for a very limited period whenever you're out of arcane power.

The idea is actually to start fights with MM (or perhaps end them to prep for the next), which I suppose would work best with a high attack rate (which would in turn raise Disintegrate's Energy consumption, perhaps making refreshing Dynamo more frequently necessary). It does depend on the proc rate, as you say, but the reason the build is built around maintaining Disintegrate for as long as possible is so that I don't need to refresh Dynamo very often. And as you also point out, there's just nothing better for raw damage potential.

Rereading the tooltips, I may swap out Mirror Image for something else. I'd been imagining we would all cast Disintegrate as one, but sadly that does not seem to be the case. I'm thinking one of these (maybe Force Weapon instead of Conduit). Opinions?

I modified an older build[...] Again, arcane dynamo might be misplaced here, but damn have you seen Death Blossom's damage? If you're surrounded, you have the advantage.

I don't trust Death Blossom. On top of not really liking Arcane Torrent (that delay between shooting and hitting just irks me), Death Blossom's description (and the fact that it's the second rune you unlock for Torrent) suggests that yeah, the damage is off the charts, but good luck hitting anything. Doesn't sound reliable enough for common use, and definitely does not sound viable against bosses. I might roll it just to see (and that's the beauty of Diablo 3; I can totally just do that whenever), but I doubt its effectiveness.


Also, trying to design a direct-damage Witch Doctor. Or at least a spirit-focused one. Gargantuan/Mass Confusion/Spirit Walk for defense, Soul Harvest to buff damage, then Haunt and Spirit Barrage for raw damage. Not sure if all the runes and passives are solid, though.

[chimericWilder]

I heard someone on the forums comparing Devouring Arrow (and whatever rune made it have more pierce chance) to Arcane Missile with Penetrating Blast, and with those numbers, Arcane Missile was way better, and someone clarified that that was because Penetrating Blast would only pierce once. It might have been incorrect information though.

The idea is actually to start fights with MM (or perhaps end them to prep for the next), which I suppose would work best with a high attack rate (which would in turn raise Disintegrate's Energy consumption, perhaps making refreshing Dynamo more frequently necessary). It does depend on the proc rate, as you say, but the reason the build is built around maintaining Disintegrate for as long as possible is so that I don't need to refresh Dynamo very often. And as you also point out, there's just nothing better for raw damage potential.

Oooh. Snap, i missed the fact that its effect would stay on for the entire duration of your disintegrate. I was thinking all in proccrates and how likely you were to even get it what with how much you would be using Arcane Missile.

And about Deathblossom...

Yeah, well, never actually a serious specc. Not for stuff like hell/inferno, anyway.
But damn can i envision just standing there chilling, mobs all around me. And they just keep dying, because each missile is absolutely murder or everything.

And yes, yes do take force weapon. 15% damage is a huuuge bonus, and knocking shit back with your disintegrate gotta be awesome. Alternatively, take blood magic, the build could certainly use some self healing.



For the witch doctor, i think maybe take Siphon with Soul Harvest. Its a damn huge heal every now and then. 70% weapon damage is cool on lower difficulties, but once you get higher up, you'll want the healing. Also, maybe you should consider Big Bad Voodoo - maybe not ideal, but damn 20% attack speed is a lot, and with slam dance, you'd get 30% damage, too.

[Not The Author]

Ooh, Blood Magic. Should keep me from dying while Diamond Skin is down - even better if my Familiar's attacks heal me! Force Weapon does sound nice, especially since disintegrate causes constant damage for higher Knockback chance, but it's only a 5% damage boost over normal Magic Weapon; still a noticeable increase but probably not as good as healing. And as you mention with the Witch Doctor, healing'll be much more important at the higher difficulties.

Deathlier Death Beam of Deathly Deathness. Probably the final version, though I might change my Familiar to a Sparkflint if my equip-bonus EnGen gets high enough and the damage it does is still arcane.

Now I just need to find one of these and I'm set. (he said, as though the game was out already)


I was thinking about switching over to a more healing-oriented Witch Doc, yeah; with Spiritual Attunement and Rush of Essence my ManaGen is going to be pretty decent, plus gear and I might swap out The Spirit Is Willing for Phlebotomize. Pretty adamant on keeping the Gargantuan, though - Devolution dogs are not reliable enough for my tastes, and I'm wary of going without one consistant aggrosoak. Plus, 3-second stun! Stuns are delicious.

On the other hand... Slam Dance plus Mass Confusion... Hmm. I'll have to think about this.


Monk build time! I call this one the Arnold Scarlet. (yay references all of twenty people will get) It's all about maintaining spirit generation with Chant Of Resonance/Mantra Of Healing/Sweeping Wind and using that to spam Tempest Rush in conjunction with Transcendence. Serenity for Panic Button, Crippling Wave if your Spirit runs low. Not sold on Cyclone Strike, but I'm not sure what else to use; at the very least it draws enemies in so that Sweeping Wind doesn't dispel while running from one group of enemies to the next.

[chimericWilder]

Well, you could always drop the spirit journey thing, or even Haunt.

[Not The Author]

Spirit journey is a huge heal, though. A 14% max HP heal every 13 seconds? That's nothing to scoff at. Might get rid of Haunt, but (I'm pretty sure) it refreshes its duration whenever it haunts a new enemy, making it very a powerful nuke-over-time, especially if used in conjunction with the Demon Hunter's Mark of Death. And again, gotta take bosses into account; I like to have a nuke ready just in case.


Speaking of heals, I crunched some numbers. If an enemy is caught in Slow Time, and I have both Magic Weapon and Dynamo up, a fully-charged disintegrate will deal 467% weapon damage. With Blood Magic, that's 7% weapon damage as life. Per tick of Disintegrate.

Per enemy Disintegrate hits.

So, yeah. Blood Magic it is.

[chimericWilder]

Thats pretty sweet aye. I look forward to seeing that in action (cos the way we're theorycrafting already, we'll probs end up playing sometime anyway, which is cool shit)

I also made a build with an absolutely ludicrous arcane power regen earlier today, and with Meteor/Comet and Hydra as the only spenders. Its on my laptop though, post it tomorrow maybe. Mostly more for lulz than as a tangible build.

E:
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...RjS!XcU!YYbaYb

[Catbread]

I am so starved for Diablo 3, I have been reduced to playing Torchlight.

How have things come to this

[chimericWilder]

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculato...VkS!bVX!ZZaaac

Armor & regen build. You stack vitality and a ludicrous amount of it. Obv you use shields. Also, enchantress companion for +15% armor. You'd take so little damage and regen so much that it is silly. It might be a little weak to spell damage depending on some things, but if so various things can be replaced to fix that, no problems. Damage will suck pretty much though, depending on whether you go only for vitality, for even more regen, or mix a little strength in, as well.