Magic: The Gathering -- Vampires, zombies and werewolves! (Oh My!)

[illisid]

I considered that, my friend had a deck with him that was nuts back when. But I'm looking for something a bit faster anyway, and our group plays so much removal now that guy wouldn't even get to tap once. Also we don't have any.

Current build is working pretty well, though it could be better. Stands up to all of our bad decks solidly, and matches are good decks. Doesn't stand a chance against our great decks though. I'll post the build in a sec

4 Death Baron
4 Reassembling skeleton
4 Crypt Champion
4 Crypt Creeper
4 Zombie Cannibal
3 Deathbringer Thocktar
4 Entrails feaster
3 shambling remains
4 Flame Fusillade
4 Lightning Bolt

9 mountain
12 swamp

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I am currently proxying the flame fusillades, deathbringer thocktars, and the entrails feasters, 3 crypt champions, and 1 reassembling skeleton. The only time we ever buy singles is from the 50 cent goodie box at cardhaus, and I remember that thing is packed with flame fusillades and thocktars, next time I'm there I'll be picking those up. I might take out the entrails feasters, I am not sure if we have many between our group, and they haven't been performing too well anyway. The crypt champions are godly in this, and we might have one or two more and I'll just buy the others, and I know we have another skeleton.

The cards on the chopping block are crypt creeper and entrails feaster. Those two and the cannibal are there to ensure that when I play my crypt champion the enemy can't zombify a creature as well. The feaster, most of the time, just ends up staying tapped waiting for a creature to enter the opponents graveyard. I'll usually only even make him eat something if I'm getting ready to play the champion anyway. It.. does it's job, but when it isn't needed it's kind of useless. The crypt creeper functions perfectly well, usually. I often find myself attacking with it if I have my baron out, for3 or to kill a creature, or blocking then sacrificing to get rid of a card the enemy could zombify. And the 3 sources of graveyard removal is too much anyway, I only need about 2.

What I need in place of the crypt creeper is either an effective aggro 2 drop that I feel good returning to play with the champions or a 2 drop that can sacrifice itself for no cost to do something effective. My friend suggested Ember hauler, which if it didn't cost 1 to sac would be great. I've thought of Blind Creeper too, but eh. And then just something else to replace entrails feaster. I think I'm going to swap in 2 or 3 bojuka bogs so I don't need more graveyard removal.

My current thought is to just put in terminates and bone splinters instead of the creeper and feaster. But with so much removal, what use is deathtouch? I think I would rather have stuff I can beat the opponent with. I may switch one out for the other, but I need suggestions on a solid one or two drop.

[Leaf]

Well, the deck obviously dies to Wrath effects, so you're going to want to be able to recover from that.

Terminate is always a good choice, and I'd definitely cut the Entrails Feaster and the Zombie Canabal. It's not necessary to keep pressure on them in the beginning. With Terminate and other removal spells, you wouldn't have to worry about their stuff coming back. You can just kill it, and keep your shit coming back. Or, if you're really worried about it, try to get ahold of some Cemetary Reapers. They do good shit.

I think the deck needs a permanent way of pinging things. Maybe Viridian Longbow, or something that recurs - Pyre Zombie?

You also look like you're lacking some much needed card draw. You obviously have the creature advantage, but you need more draw power. Phyrexian Arena or maybe Graveborn Muse... Try to go with the Arena, though. The Muse will fuck you up. If you can't get ahold of them, something like Infernal Tribute, or even Sign in Blood.

I think I'd try a deck that looks something like this:

4x Death Baron
4x Crypt Champion
3x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Deathbringer Thoctar
1x Lim-Dul the Necromancer
2x Lord of Undead
2x Pyre Zombie
3x Undead Warchief

4x Terminate
2x Flame Fusillade
3x Viridian Longbow
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Innocent Blood

4x Terramorphic Expanse
4x Evolving Wilds
6x Mountain
11x Swamp

Obviously, you don't have to build this - just an extension on your original idea.

[kickan]

What the fuck? They got rid of Mana Burn?

That's straight up bullshit. You tap too much mana you pay the price.

Yeah, how often was that rule ever relevant? And now there's the possibility of new cards that wouldn't have been made otherwise, like Near-Death Experience. So now you can't burn yourself down to one life and win. You have to do it the hard way, with Wall of Blood or something.

Half of the complaints about the M10 rules changes amounted to "It's different now it sucks!" The reasoning behind the big changes (no mana burn, combat damage doesn't use the stack) actually makes sense once you start thinking like a card designer. Which most scrubs on the internet don't do. (No offense to anyone here, I'm active on a popular Magic forum and the average poster makes me want to kill myself with nine kinds of acid.)

[illisid]

Yeah once I got used to it I didn't mind the changes so much. I still... don't care for the zone renaming though. Battlefield is still derpy, though exile is short and sweet.



That pyre zombie would be excellent, but I hate buying singles unless they're in the 50 cent bin. You're right about the card draw, but so far in testing I've either won or lost before I've lost my hand. And pyroclasm does destroy me. I took out entrails feaster, they weren't working at all, and put in quest for the gravelord, which in a way serves as pyroclasm protection. They wipe the board and now I have a 5/5 zombie. Not perfect, I still lose my board position, but I gain a bit of it back. I took out the crypt creepers for dregscape zombies, which are a little better, aggro-wise, but I think you're right about putting more kill spells. The flame fusillades are only any good if I'm matched against a blue control deck. Unless it gets countered. The thocktar as the reliable source of ping is beautiful though, I'm not so sure it needs more.

Putting one lim dul in there would be a cool idea, for the "what if our games are lasting forever" times. And the marauder is also a really good idea, play him on turn 3 as an expensive innocent blood, and bring him back with the champion turn 4 and sac my skeleton. Then he's swinging for 4 if I have a baron out.

I will probably end up taking out the dregscape zombies for terminates, and maybe the fusillades for marauders. I'm currently mulling between magma spray and lightning bolt, since the spray removes the creature if it dies, kills those pesky kitchen finks so they won't persist or come back with the champion.

[Leaf]

You're right about the sprays killing Finks. Normally, I'd disagree, but you have to play toward your metagame

Can you make room for both Lightning Bolt and Spray?

Also, the Marauders make the Thoctar retarded - they come in, kill two creatures, and you get 2 counters on the Tthoctar. You then proceed to wipe the field.

[illisid]

Seriously. I have been able to test this build a bit and it's working. I think bolt and the spray are slightly redundant, especially if I have terminate in there. I'll probably end up using the spray and putting the bolts somewhere more useful.

[Leaf]

Bolt is pretty powerful though.

I mean, use the spray if you're seriously worried about Finks, but other than that, I'd use Bolts.

Damage that can go to the face is the best.

[illisid]

It's not even the finks, it's just it gets rid of exactly what I need. If it's gone they can't bring it back when I play crypt champion, and 2 is almost always enough to kill a cmc 3 or less creature. I dunno I'm still twiddling it. You're right, the cannibals are starting to feel useless now that I've upgraded everything else in the deck.

[illisid]

So uh, Scars of Mirrodin is coming out in a month.



eh???

[mmmaax]

In my second play session ever I managed to deal 16 damage to a single player in one turn.

I think this is a good thing

[kickan]

So uh, Scars of Mirrodin is coming out in a month.

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eh???

Don't forget the new Mox. And the return of Phyrexia. And the return of Poison counters. And, well, the return of Mirrodin in general.

Gonna be a good set, yup.

[illisid]

So far it looks good. I'm watching really closely, I'm really afraid they're going to fuck all this up again.

Urza's saga: well shit I guess we learned a few things about power level and artifacts. Never going to do that again.
Mirrodin: You guys remember when we said we were never going to do that again? well uh, we made a couple mistakes... *cough* aether vial *cough* isochron scepter *cough* artifacts with affinity for artifacts *cough*. Well rest assured we're never going to do that again.

So guys we've decided we're going back to Mirrodin. But don't worry! We've learned.

[kickan]

Well, it's been years since the first Mirrodin set. And there have been major shifts in design philosophy and the design teams since then. The issues in the first Mirrodin block mostly came about because of changes that were made last-minute without proper playtesting. And Urza's Saga was made with no playtesting at all! They're much, much more careful about letting things like that happen anymore.

[illisid]

Yeah I still don't know. So far it looks good though so fingers crossed. I can't imagine how playtesting let mindsculptor through the cracks though. Did you know there's one guy who's made all the seriously OP cards recently? Tarmogoyf, mindsculptor, baneslayer, bloodbraid elf, blightning, all those were made by one guy. My friend read something on the MTG site about the making of the new jace and he said that guy thought "how can I make this guy better than any other planeswalker? I know I'll give him a fourth ability, make it free, and make it great!"

[Fix It Jones]

No slivers. Especially not combo slivers.

Well fuck you too, buddy
You just mad about my all foil sliver deck.

[kickan]

Yeah I still don't know. So far it looks good though so fingers crossed. I can't imagine how playtesting let mindsculptor through the cracks though. Did you know there's one guy who's made all the seriously OP cards recently? Tarmogoyf, mindsculptor, baneslayer, bloodbraid elf, blightning, all those were made by one guy. My friend read something on the MTG site about the making of the new jace and he said that guy thought "how can I make this guy better than any other planeswalker? I know I'll give him a fourth ability, make it free, and make it great!"

Those power cards are all still not nearly as bad as the mistakes that used to get through, though. Even Tarmogoyf, the worst of those, is nothing compared to the savagery that was Affinity in Standard.

When you err on the side of being too conservative with these things, you get Masques block/Kamigawa block. Jace will pass, just like the others always do.

[Fix It Jones]

So uh, Scars of Mirrodin is coming out in a month.



eh???

Jesus christ this has so many possibilities I want 4 of them

[illisid]

Those power cards are all still not nearly as bad as the mistakes that used to get through, though. Even Tarmogoyf, the worst of those, is nothing compared to the savagery that was Affinity in Standard.

When you err on the side of being too conservative with these things, you get Masques block/Kamigawa block. Jace will pass, just like the others always do.

yeah I know. I'm a lot less concerned about the power creep than my friends are. But mirrodin followed by kamigawa is what caused me to quit in the first place, so I'm wary.

Well fuck you too, buddy
You just mad about my all foil sliver deck.

you bought the theme deck? I kinda want it. Also the hate is superficial, I have a sliver deck too. Technically it's a mirror entity deck though.

[Fix It Jones]

you bought the theme deck? I kinda want it. Also the hate is superficial, I have a sliver deck too. Technically it's a mirror entity deck though.

Yeah I bought it. First Magic thing I had bought in about 2 years. The guy at my comic shop, who knew I was an avid Sliver player smirked at me and said "Hey [Fix it], All foil sliver deck" and extended his hand, knowing I would buy that shit

[Leaf]

I got one, then made a Sliver EDH deck out of it.

Shit's so fun!

There are some really badass cards in Scars; except for the new Sword...

Fuck that shit.

[slyfan64]

The difference between abilities on that sword is just too funny:
Get a 2/2 token you'll probably sacrifice for a spell or chump block
TAKE 10 CARDS OFF THEIR DECK

I can see people making combos out of the 2/2 and it's definitely versatile, but it just get so overshadowed by the epic milling second ability!

[kickan]

The difference between abilities on that sword is just too funny:
Get a 2/2 token you'll probably sacrifice for a spell or chump block
TAKE 10 CARDS OFF THEIR DECK

I can see people making combos out of the 2/2 and it's definitely versatile, but it just get so overshadowed by the epic milling second ability!

Unfortunately, mill is a very weak strategy unless there's a LOT of support for it. There just isn't that much for mill to be a decent strategy right now, especially with Poison looking like it will be a pretty quick aggro strategy.

[illisid]

are you kidding? if that sword attacks 6 times they're dead. It doesn't even need to be a mill deck. It creates it's own blockers who can also equip the sword if they wan. I'd put it in a blue evasion deck, with a turn one, I don't know zephyr sprite? Turn 2 inkfathom infiltrator, turn 3 sword, turn 4 equip and mill 10. And the rest of the deck can be denial and permission.

[Kuraiou]

So uh, Scars of Mirrodin is coming out in a month.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFf

I'm not going to lie

most of the reason I stopped playing in the first place was the utter un-fun brokenness of Mirrodin. Admittedly Urza's BLANK was broke as shit, but at least it was broke with ridiculous combos.

so uh anyways I am glad that there is a thread for this and I will be watching it, but there's really not a lot to contribute. I'm a pretty bad player even though I've been around since 4th ed. I tend towards green/white a little too much, I hate playing as or playing against blue, and that is why I fail.

fun story, I was in an M11 draft at GenCon and got completely crushed by a person who managed to draft a mill deck. M11 has some solid freaking mill, and when you only have a 40-card deck?

Yeah. It was not fun to play against. (YES HE HAD JACE OF COURSE HE HAD JACE. Did I get any mythic rares? OF COURSE NOT. I never do. I have the worst luck drafting rares ever.)

[Leaf]

I love a core set where I can draft a U/B mill control deck.

Also, the mill ability is what makes the sword so bad... Why the fuck would I want to mill anyone with Eldrazi in standard right now?

Also, compared to the other 2 swords, this one is terrible...

Shock a creature or player and draw a card. Pro R/U - Pretty fucking good.

Gain 3 life and get a creature back. Pro REMOVAL - Pretty fucking epic.

Get a 2/2 and mill 10 cards. Pro G/U - Seriously, Wizards... WTF?